Defining Jedi and Sith

Look at the two codes.

A Sith is fueled by passion. They are usually more hands on and direct. At their best they are artists, poets and creators. At their worst they are cold and argumentative manipulators for their own gain. Sith come at life with an axe, for better or worse. There is an urgency to them that is admirable, but can sometimes blow up in their faces.

A Jedi is fueled by a desire to control their passions, to see with clear eyes. They are ruled by careful discernment. Jedi are more likely to talk to you in metaphor so that you might learn something in your own way, in your own time. There is no rush, you are on your own path, you reach your own destination in your own time. At their best they are that steady, sound mind you hope your children will become. At their worst they are removed and useless in their own cave of deep thoughts. There is a slow, carefulness to them that is admirable, but it can seem like apathy if they consider too long while something important needs doing.

We are not living in films; they are just the names of the two poles we all live between. It is not possible to be all one or the other, and neither one is "good" or "bad".

Trisskar wrote:

Goken wrote:

Kitsu Tails wrote: They are afraid that...once Jedi is Defined...they will no longer fit the bill.

An argument can be made that those who most actively seek definition are more afraid that they already don't and seek validation from an outside source. I'm perfectly fine with being a Jedi in these "unclear" terms because to me it is clear, I just don't know how to make it clear to you (general you). But you know what, that doesn't matter to me. You can think whatever you want, I am secure in the fact that I fit my indescribable definition of Jedi whether you understand what I mean or not.

Thats all well and good. When your just being you

If I am a Jedi, than I am just being me..

Trisskar wrote: They are afraid that...once Jedi is Defined...they will no longer fit the bill.

No, the problem has nothing to do with that...

Amusing others would offer a reason for me...

It has to do with the same reason I stopped being Christian...

"Who in the fuck, does anyone think they are to tell me I am anything? Except myself?"

(curse word said to show emphasis, deal with it, addressed to anyone)

Here's the thing...

I will fight against a hardline definition, for that reason as I cannot tell anyone whether they are or not, just as they cannot tell me...

SHOULD some all wise Jedi Council come up with definition I can tolerate? I may consider myself one still...

If not? Then I will consider myself 'former Jedi' as I considered myself 'former catholic' before calling myself Jedi...

Until then, Im cool where Im at..

Jestor wrote: I will fight against a hardline definition, for that reason as I cannot tell anyone whether they are or not, just as they cannot tell me...[/color]

You are already "hardline" defined by the tenets, the code, the creed, the teachings and the maxims. Turning those things into a sentence that most easily sums them up ruins none of the experience (and anyone who doesn't understand that people move about within broad definitions and expectations of themselves is being a bit naive anyway).

Just saying. No aggression intended

Snowy Aftermath wrote:

Jestor wrote: I will fight against a hardline definition, for that reason as I cannot tell anyone whether they are or not, just as they cannot tell me...[/color]

You are already "hardline" defined by the tenets, the code, the creed, the teachings and the maxims. Turning those things into a sentence that most easily sums them up ruins none of the experience (and anyone who doesn't understand that people move about within broad definitions and expectations of themselves is being a bit naive anyway).

Just saying. No aggression intended

During my limited time here I have seen enough discussion about the tenets, code, creed, teachings, and maxims to know that they are not necessarily "Hardline" in a universal sense that everyone gets what they mean and that meaning is the same to everyone. I think that all of those things combined form about as good a definition as we can get in their long form. Trying to condense it down would be to strip it of too much.

Snowy Aftermath wrote:

Jestor wrote: I will fight against a hardline definition, for that reason as I cannot tell anyone whether they are or not, just as they cannot tell me...[/color]

You are already "hardline" defined by the tenets, the code, the creed, the teachings and the maxims. Turning those things into a sentence that most easily sums them up ruins none of the experience (and anyone who doesn't understand that people move about within broad definitions and expectations of themselves is being a bit naive anyway).

Just saying. No aggression intended

Wrong thread for me to go much into my beliefs, but, lol...

Let me say that my exact breakdown of the doctrine and code will differ from yours...

For example, im not against the Death Penalty :ohmy:...

But, plenty of Jedi would eliminate me simply on that....



~sent from the Hitchhiker's Guide, inside my GalaxyS7~

Jestor wrote: Wrong thread for me to go much into my beliefs, but, lol...

Let me say that my exact breakdown of the doctrine and code will differ from yours...

For example, im not against the Death Penalty :only:...

But, plenty of Jedi would eliminate me simply on that....

I do disagree with having a tighter definition for the sake of using it as a weapon against each other. If that's the only reason to have it, I would fight it as well.

I've been a Damned Dirty Atheist™ long enough to know that I'm going to be squeezed out of the club every time if I let someone else make the call on whether or not I fit in

Jestor wrote:

Trisskar wrote:

Goken wrote:

Kitsu Tails wrote: They are afraid that...once Jedi is Defined...they will no longer fit the bill.

An argument can be made that those who most actively seek definition are more afraid that they already don't and seek validation from an outside source. I'm perfectly fine with being a Jedi in these "unclear" terms because to me it is clear, I just don't know how to make it clear to you (general you). But you know what, that doesn't matter to me. You can think whatever you want, I am secure in the fact that I fit my indescribable definition of Jedi whether you understand what I mean or not.

Thats all well and good. When your just being you

If I am a Jedi, than I am just being me..

And by the gods almighty and the Force that is everywhere. You enjoy you

However. When discussing the creation of a Jedi community, the acceptance of followers, and the teachings of said followers. Some definitions must be defined in order to present what it is "We" (in general) are standing for. TOTJO Has done that with its doctines, tennets and....bleh bleh bleh....

Definitions need not be limiting. On the contrary. They are simply the first step into discovering your own beliefs and "Way"

Everyone has to start somewhere. Telling a New Person "Do whatever the f** You want." Is a rather unprofessional method of teaching. In my honest opinion, of course

In my own methods of teaching (No I am in no way saying my methods are best or right. Just simply how I do it. Nothing more.) I first start with the basic definitions. And then instruct how one can branch out and grow from there.

At Just Jedi. My own personal Definition (And approved by several Jedi Community Leaders) is: "Jedi believe in the force. Aspire to the Tenets and The Journey. Help others through compassion and selflessness. While maintaining a calm, peaceful and professional composure through knowledge and training."

very simple and basic. And opens to further discovery.

No one is saying a definition of Jedi should limit people in boxes. Meerly provide a foundation to start on.

From my point of view

I anchor my existence with various types of symbols to punctuate my focus, but even they are not rigid - as I tend to change them to what ever works the best as I myself change and grow, and of course to changing external circumstances. Heck, sometimes even fiction works best.

If our awareness is a cognitive model of reality, and our decision making occurs to meet another type of model, being a preferred projection model, then the agents in between which mediate that 'drive' to shape the present into an expected future might not need to even exist in reality itself.... consciousness as a catalyst for action, sitting neatly between perception and desire.

So I'd tend to view the Jedi path as being orientated to perception and connection to relate to the Force, and Sith perhaps as being more on desire. All this of course begs the question about what is the Force, but I would have thought an observance or belief in something identified as the Force would be perhaps a requirement of both Jedi and Sith paths? I'm not even sure if everyone would agree on that question, let alone anything much more structural.

But back to my point, it does not have to go only one way, as symbols can be used by the subconscious to communicate to the conscious seemingly. If you ignore feeling hungry enough, then you might start to think about food without realizing it, as an example. So in that regard I'd imagine the Sith path might be better positioned to focus more on diving into subconscious desires and this could be an avenue to embody concepts like darkness. I don't think its unique to Sith though, and indeed pending the answer to the above question about the Force, I'd even venture to consider Sith a sect of Jedi, or vice versa depending on where a person priorities lay in regard to actualizing self power
:blink:
But I say all that in terms of reference outlined in my original reply to this thread, its open to personal interpretation IMO.

I'm only going to respond to this section (and a little bit at the bottom). I also haven't read the other responses (my apologies friends, I have been out).

*Cue frumpy council responses* You can make yourself believe you can be both wholly Sith and Jedi, but the two really aren't apples and oranges so much as apples and whatever is the least like an apple, but remains edible. I personally don't agree with all of the Jedi teachings, but respect them and understand their value, so this is slightly self-condemnatory. You can pick and choose between the two, as I would argue most people unconsciously do, and end up somewhere in between, not fully either. Regardless, I think that my research has actually deepened my understanding of the purpose of the temple. In the end, I don't think any actual sith will (or should) be booted from this community, since universalism tends to be a heavy influence on Jediism.

By saying what one is not, by logical conclusion, one is also defining what they are. To say one is not a Jedi, however, does not by rights mean they are a Sith. Vice versa is true also. So you are right, many are between... but perhaps only because Jediism (and Sithism) is reflective of many other belief systems also, given that they are, to some extent, syncretic. We pick and choose our values here anyway, seems sensible one would with Jediism also.

You're right when you say no actual sith will be booted from the community... there are Sith here, though they don't all hang around with a badge that says 'I am a Sith' (that would be silly ).

To hone in on this point...

You can make yourself believe you can be both wholly Sith and Jedi, but the two really aren't apples and oranges so much as apples and whatever is the least like an apple, but remains edible.

I used to try and define myself with many labels; I realised very recently that some of these labels were contradictory to some (though never to me). It's quite difficult to explain to others how I reconciled Jediism, Satanism and Quakerism. Now I don't bother labelling myself because in doing so I reduce what I am to a few (all of them misunderstood) words, none of which can really adequately describe myself. Nobody actually needs the labels 'Jedi' and 'Sith'... and as you quite rightly pointed out, they aren't really apples and oranges. It's not really about 'making oneself believe' anything... one is or one isn't what they are, words are irrelevant in that respect really, it's often others that attempt to define them.

I hope that this endeavor of mine could almost help to unify the Sith (despite the inherent disinclination to organize in a functional hierarcy) at least for the benefit of comparison and contrast.

Do they really need unification? Have you asked them what they think? Why do they need a hierarchy?

When a lot of people first hear and approach jediism, it's about being real life jedi, about the philosophy, the way of life, the morals, the beliefs, the force whatever.

The further down the rabbit hole I went personally, IN MY OPINION, Jedi-Ism is more about finding a path that works best for you. There are many different ways to believe in jediism its something almost every site teaches but its all about finding your way of doing it. You still follow a general set of rules such as the tenants and so forth but not everyone follows the same code. I certaintly don't. That doesn't make me a terrible Jedi though.

I personally like to think of jediism more as a means to the end, then the end itself. That its more about techniques, understanding, and philosophy used as a way for you to figure out more about yourself, who you are, and who you want to be, and a way to discipline and dedicate yourself to becoming that new person, that uses the star wars universe as a way to fill in the gaps of why or how, or just something that best fits the big picture and all of the holes that all religions fill within beliefs.

As what will be described IF and WHEN I do another vlog series(which I'm still debating on ever doing again). My biggest point on any jedi code is, not a every day set of rules, but rather the start of the code should be where you are now, and the end of the code should be where you want to be. This is something that you will perpetually be in. There will always be more wisdom to be had, more understanding to be had, more peace to be had etc. When I wrote my personal code I wrote it in this way. I wrote it in a way that as I repeat it every day and believe in it every day that I've laid out the path that I want to use to improve myself, to better myself, and to be better to those around me. I didn't pick it out or put it together because someone else defined it.

Why does anyone believe in any set of religious tenants or rules or code if not but to better themselves in some form or another. You can throw a wrapper and a label of these things are jedi and anything else is not but fundamentally the action is the same no matter if its Jedi code, new jedi code, grey jedi code, sith code, dark jedi code, flannel Jedi code. It's all about acknowledging where you are now, where you came from, and laying a path of where you want to be. Which is going to be different even if only ever so slightly to a range of greatly different for everyone.

If following a code, or developing your code and then following it, that act, that belief had a name, if the action of improving yourself and following that code had a label on it, that's what I would call being a Jedi, and following in Jediism. That may apply to sith or dark or shadow knights or crystal code or whatever, not trying to say everyone is a Jedi but I'm tired of excluding that anyone is not a Jedi in some form or another as well. I'm really really tired of people excluding other codes as being Jedi as well. We are all doing the same damn thing at the end of the day no matter which one it is fundamentally.