Defining Jedi and Sith

Defining Jedi and Sith…

A lot of times this tends to turn into defining what people think Jedi should or could be; and, not so much of what they are. So we’ll do away with dreamy eyed ideas and wishes and take a moment to look at what is. If you are reading this, then you are here, at the temple. Are you working, or have you worked the IP? Have you read the tenets? The Code? The teachings? Do you agree with any of it? Have you tried to understand any of it and/or incorporate any of it into your thoughts, your life? Then find a mirror because I am going to show you what a Jedi is!

What is a Sith? Ask a Sith. This is a place for Jedi and discovering what we need to be the best us we can be. It is not a place where we decide what someone else is.

what is a sith? whatever they decide they are...
what is a jedi? whatever they decide they are...

who are you? whomever you decide you are...
who am i? whomever i decide i am...

your focus determines your reality...if you believe you need clearly defined parameters to identify the world around you, then only you can clearly define those parameters in a way that you fully understand. most things cannot be clearly defined in a manner that is universally understood....my blue is not the same as everyone else's blue...

only in fiction do the sith follow the "rule of two"...in the real world most sith are either fiercely independent, or strong team players...independent ones usually only trust their own abilities to achieve their goals, the team players usually trust that their teammates abilities will aid in achieving their goals...

i've been down both paths...both paths can be solitary and internal, both can be communal and external...it is what you make of it, no matter what path you travel...

The Jedi in the real world & in books and movies work in harmony and try to become one with the force, while the Sith in the real world of in the Star wars fictonal world shaping the force to their Idea of thier dreams of harmony..

RyuJin wrote: what is a sith? whatever they decide they are...
what is a jedi? whatever they decide they are...

who are you? whomever you decide you are...
who am i? whomever i decide i am...

your focus determines your reality...if you believe you need clearly defined parameters to identify the world around you, then only you can clearly define those parameters in a way that you fully understand. most things cannot be clearly defined in a manner that is universally understood....my blue is not the same as everyone else's blue...

only in fiction do the sith follow the "rule of two"...in the real world most sith are either fiercely independent, or strong team players...independent ones usually only trust their own abilities to achieve their goals, the team players usually trust that their teammates abilities will aid in achieving their goals...

i've been down both paths...both paths can be solitary and internal, both can be communal and external...it is what you make of it, no matter what path you travel...

Would you be a grey Jedi? just wondering

Ruy jin

Well, thank you all who have responded for your thoughts. I completely understand that the temple is purposefully vague, and did this not in the spirit of exclusivity, but rather to anneal my own understanding of Jediism. I purposefully ignored any comments regarding Star Wars sith/jedi lore, and even though I can occasionally nerd out on that, think that this discussion has deeper quality and merits similar answers.

I'm not a Sith, I only discovered that Sith(-ism?) is a real thing this week; I have, however, been going through the Initiate Programme and feel that Jediism has much to offer, but lacks cohesive thought. Everyone has their own understanding of Jediism, and this has been mostly a way to question my own.

To quote a book I recently read, "If nothing is an absolute reality, all is permitted." I don't ask that Jediism creates a ubiquitous system to answer every possible scenario, but do think that the vagueness of Jediism can easily lead to polar opposites flying the same banner while conflicting over who is the "real Jedi."
A lot of the posts are people trying to define sith as a mix between the movies and the opposite (or sum) of their beliefs; you have the same questions as me.

Anyways, real siths (who happen to be on here) please tell me your opinion, since we've spoken for you in your absence so far.
If anyone else want to discuss this, I'd love to have a one on one chat in messages.

Quick post-script: Edan, I have briefly read a few things where you talked about your beliefs, and so my comments weren't meant to poke at them, but rather to point out that a traditionalist of any one of those groups might disagree with you similar to how Jedi might argue what Jediism might be (and Sith).

I posted a version of this in my Apprentice Journal but since not everyone has access I will re-post a portion of it here.
thx!

I spent a great deal of time in contemplation of something that has been bothering me about Jediism for a while now. Myth of the past is intimately tied to the way people lived and believed. The inherent sacrifice built into hunter gather groups and the agricultural cycles and seasons of the year and the movement of the stars and man’s contemplation of what it means to be alive and how the universe works are all reflected in these myths. In other words, the myths grew out of these realities of everyday life. They are a way for us to express our experiences and emotions and our sense of connection to each other and this universe. They are, in effect, a reflection of the reality we know. And because of the challenges we encounter as a species the underlying leitmotifs of these myths has come to span all cultures and even time itself; the emergence of similar themes and archetypes appears again and again.

But it seems that in the creation of Jediism from the mythology of Star Wars this is missing. The saga of Star Wars itself has the overarching themes and archetypes of any great mythos but in the creation of a real life religion centered on this mythos that connection to how we live and what we believe seems to be missing. It’s almost like the myth was created first and then the reality was built around it. Because of this, most Jedi seem to worship the myth itself instead of what it represents. Instead of focusing on defining what Jediism means from a practical standpoint many Jedi can’t describe any aspect of their spirituality without referring to one of the movies or its associated extended literature. This seems like a false basis for belief. Jediism has no real definitions and no real doctrine that can unite the “religion” as a whole

We understand that these movies are, like the weapon of the light saber itself, wholly fictitious. But they are based on constructs and ideas that immediately seem familiar to us through what Campbell would describe as universal themes and archetypes. As such, we have a deep desire to emulate what we see in these films; to tap into that universal unconscious that strikes us with awe and wonder. Naturally, that leads us to wanting to emulate what we see in the movies. We are all drawn to Jediism because we want to touch that level of understanding of what it might be like to be an actual Jedi. I think this is a main goal of all of the Jediism groups out there.

However, the question then becomes: How do we do that? My experience as a Jedi has shown me that many just feel what they see in the movies is to be taken as reality, no questions asked. They actually resist any sort of reality based definition of what a Jedi is. Instead they claim it’s just a personal experience that is not the same for any two. But without a definition of what a Jedi is how can we recognize a Jedi when we encounter one? If any definition is left up to the individual then what is to keep me from acting like a Sith (for example) and just calling myself a Jedi? After all my definition is just as valid as any others, right? Having said that, I do understand that there is some doctrine written that a Jedi swears to follow, but even that is different from group to group or one that many do now wholly embrace or completely agree with. So once again this becomes something that is up to individual preference and cannot be taken as a basis for definition. This leaves us with nothing but the application of movie and book plot points to resolve real life questions and that in turn leaves any chance at defining what it means to be a Jedi or solidifying Jediism into a truly functional religion at near zero.

I have been stuck on this dilemma for quite some time, trying to resolve my Jediism with my sense of disconnection from what it means to be called a Jedi. In this pursuit I began to look at Archetypes again and I began to realize that I, and I feel many others, have been only skimming the surface of the Star Wars mythos. In order to truly understand what it is to be a Jedi or to form any definition of what a Jedi is we need to delve deeper into the mythos and begin to understand what universal concepts are speaking to us that we are trying to mimic. I was drawn back to Campbell for this. Campbell describes the concept of monomyth (one myth). This refers to the theory that sees all mythic narratives as variations of a single great story. The theory is based on the observation that a common pattern exists beneath the narrative elements of most great myths. Mythology itself has a fourfold function within human society. Awakening a sense of awe before the mystery of being, Explaining the shape of the universe, Validate and support the existing social order and guiding the individual through the stages of life. Star Wars definitely falls into this category so if we are to find what it is that is speaking to us we must dig deeper and find this fourfold pattern.

Archetypes are a major component of this function. They are highly developed structures of our hidden psyche that emerge in our species as a result of our shared experiences across cultures and time. This is known as our collective unconscious. Jung described these in three categories. Archetypal events include: birth, death, separation from parents, initiation, marriage, the union of opposites; archetypal figures include: great mother, father, child, devil, god, wise old man, the monk, wise old woman, the trickster, the hero, the warrior; and archetypal motifs include: the apocalypse, the deluge, the creation. Archetypes are the embodiment of the fundamental characteristics of these things rather than their specific peculiarities. I think this is the thing that many have missed. We have been stuck on the surface exploring details and specifics of the myth when we needed to be delving into the most basic characteristics of the experience and finding that thing deep in our psyche that speaks to us and draws us inwards in the most fundamental way. We need to begin to unravel the very fabric of the myth of Star Wars itself and find what it is we are sensing as so profound in these movies.

So what does it mean to call myself Jedi? It’s not about knowing everything I can about Luke Skywalker’s life or defining myself as using the light side or the dark side of the force (whatever that even means) or that I follow this doctrine or that doctrine or that I have incorporated aspects of Buddhism or Daoism into my spirituality or even that I practice meditation or regularly save kittens from fires. None of those things universally defines me as a Jedi as all those things vary from group to group and even from individual to individual. If you ask any two Jedi what the Force is you will get two very different answers. Instead we need to realize these things don’t matter because they are really just the specific peculiarities of individual belief and experience. Instead we need to go deeper, into the foundations of the myth. We need to understand what a Jedi is in purely mythological terms. This needs to be a universal definition from the collective unconscious that encompasses all who call themselves Jedi no matter what specifics they believe or follow. We need to look at the very archetype of Jedi.

To use Jungian archetypes: A Jedi is a Warrior Monk.
A Warrior Monk is a concept found in various cultures that describes an individual who combines aspects of being a monk, such as deep religious devotion and an ascetic lifestyle, with being a warrior, trained to engage in conflict (sometimes violent conflict). This person is highly trained for protection of themselves, their ideals and of those others who cannot protect themselves while exercising what they consider to be their rightful political and economic and spiritual rights in the search for truth. In these pursuits the Warrior Monk has a sacred devotion to this path.

Replace the term Warrior Monk with Jedi and I think you have a universal definition of what it means to be a modern day Jedi. Each of us individually will differ in the semantics of their personal philosophies as Jedi and yet still remain under the umbrella of this archetype definition. I think even the term Sith can be included in this because even though they employ different methods to achieve their goals, they are still following this archetype.

Other examples of this combination of archetypes include the Sōhei - a type of Japanese warrior, the Knights Templar, Knights Hospitallers and Teutonic Knights who were all warriors during the Crusades, and the Shaolin Monastery, a Chinese monastery renowned for monks who were experts in the martial arts. These are but a few examples of this Archetype manifesting in reality, myth and legend throughout time. I think the term “Jedi”, as we define it, is just another modern day paradigm of these past great Warrior Monks. Those who dedicate themselves to the path can even come to earn the title as Knights. Not all members of our species will identify with this archetype. But for us at TotJO (and those in other Jedi groups) it is the aspects of this archetype that WE are drawn to and it is these attributes that speak to us deep in our subconscious and it is the reason we pursue the path that we do. It is the reason we call ourselves Jedi.

FTPC wrote: The Jedi in the real world & in books and movies work in harmony and try to become one with the force, while the Sith in the real world of in the Star wars fictonal world shaping the force to their Idea of thier dreams of harmony..

RyuJin wrote: what is a sith? whatever they decide they are...
what is a jedi? whatever they decide they are...

who are you? whomever you decide you are...
who am i? whomever i decide i am...

your focus determines your reality...if you believe you need clearly defined parameters to identify the world around you, then only you can clearly define those parameters in a way that you fully understand. most things cannot be clearly defined in a manner that is universally understood....my blue is not the same as everyone else's blue...

only in fiction do the sith follow the "rule of two"...in the real world most sith are either fiercely independent, or strong team players...independent ones usually only trust their own abilities to achieve their goals, the team players usually trust that their teammates abilities will aid in achieving their goals...

i've been down both paths...both paths can be solitary and internal, both can be communal and external...it is what you make of it, no matter what path you travel...

Would you be a grey Jedi? just wondering

Ruy jin

I am whatever I feel is needed at a particular time and circumstance...there are times when one needs to hide in the shadows, and there are times when one needs to bathe in the light....all you have to do is be capable of handling the consequences of your choices.

People think and believe they are one or the other simply by labeling themselves as one or if they have a membership for a site that is one or the either. A sith is more of someone who wants power and is unaware of their actions and surroundings by reacting most of the time. A Jedi wants to help and guide others in any way they can, but is aware of their own actions and surroundings, but responds as well as reacts. The main difference between both is that a Jedi knows whats the good from the bad and the right from the wrong.