Defining Jedi and Sith

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7 years 10 months ago #242113 by Rex
Defining Jedi and Sith was created by Rex
At first, it seemed like "Sith" was just a vague adjective for whatever wasn't the highest caliber ideological Jedi material; but then, the internets told me otherwise. I briefly skimmed quite a few of these little pockets of Sith to try and answer a few newly burning questions:
1) What defines Sith thought
2) Does Sith-dom necessarily have to be the converse of Jedi thought
3) What is the relationship of Jedi to Sith
Before you go any further and accuse me of villifying either side (or those sorta straddling the fence *cough* Khaos *cough*), I am not making any moral calls, and am leaving ethics out of this discussion.

1) The man most quoted (either directly or accidentally plagiarised) by a mile was Nietzsche. If that name doesn't ring a few bells, try "Will to Power", "God is Dead", or "Ubermensch." His Rex's Condensed VersionTM beliefs were that self-actualization to control the masses is the natural order (btw exhistential nihilism).
Sith take quite a few pages from his books, often publicising the "God is dead and we killed him" to sum it up tidily. They deify utility instead, but toss a sprinkle of Ayn Rand in and serve themselves rather than necessarily the public interest (Also Nietzschian).
Every practice and technique is a method of empowering one's self and channelling it into controlling the world around you. For their name's sake, they use the SithTM Lucasfilms, but now Disney code which is purely a dialectic to the respective Jedi counterpart.
Dear Sith readers, please correct me and I will eventually update this.

2) No, just because canon says so doesn't make it true in the Temple of the Jedi Order. Besides, only Sith deal in absolutes. The two are different sides of the same coin, seeing self-empowerment as an intermediary goal. However, they vastly separate from there, as Jedi are rather doctrinally foofy (yes, I purposefully used that word) and Sith are naturally fractured but unified by the pursuit of power for its own sake.

3) *Cue frumpy council responses* You can make yourself believe you can be both wholly Sith and Jedi, but the two really aren't apples and oranges so much as apples and whatever is the least like an apple, but remains edible. I personally don't agree with all of the Jedi teachings, but respect them and understand their value, so this is slightly self-condemnatory. You can pick and choose between the two, as I would argue most people unconsciously do, and end up somewhere in between, not fully either. Regardless, I think that my research has actually deepened my understanding of the purpose of the temple. In the end, I don't think any actual sith will (or should) be booted from this community, since universalism tends to be a heavy influence on Jediism.

I hope that this endeavor of mine could almost help to unify the Sith (despite the inherent disinclination to organize in a functional hierarcy) at least for the benefit of comparison and contrast.

Please respond and critique

References:
https://orderofthesithdomain.wordpress.com
http://sithministries.com/faq.htm
http://sithacademy.com/
http://www.sithholocron.com/main.htm
http://templeofthesith.com/
Sith Academy: The Path of Power (The Nine Echelons)

Knights Secretary's Secretary
Apprentices: Vandrar
TM: Carlos Martinez
"A serious and good philosophical work could be written consisting entirely of jokes" - Wittgenstein

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7 years 10 months ago - 7 years 10 months ago #242117 by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic Defining Jedi and Sith

Rex wrote: 1) What defines Sith thought
2) Does Sith-dom necessarily have to be the converse of Jedi thought
3) What is the relationship of Jedi to Sith


It's a component, a subset, of my Jedi path and so IMO;
1. themselves, yourself
2. no
3. varies, if someone defines their thought to a particular identity then it can benefit from being overt, but might not be, and it might not exist in isolation of other thought.

Rex wrote: In the end, I don't think any actual sith will (or should) be booted from this community, since universalism tends to be a heavy influence on Jediism.


Correct, they are not, not for being Sith at least :laugh: :ohmy:

Knight ~ introverted extropian, mechatronic neurothealogizing, technogaian buddhist. Likes integration, visualization, elucidation and transformation.
Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med ~ Dis
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
Last edit: 7 years 10 months ago by Adder.

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7 years 10 months ago #242118 by
Replied by on topic Defining Jedi and Sith
1) What defines Sith thought
From Sith to Sith that is just as different as from Jedi to Jedi , it depends on the person, but i am to short a member of this community to have a very in depth answer haha

2) Does Sith-dom necessarily have to be the converse of Jedi thought
No we complement eachother like hate is a part of love and humility of self importance , two sides of the same coin if you will.

3) What is the relationship of Jedi to Sith
We keep eachother sane :P

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7 years 10 months ago - 7 years 10 months ago #242128 by Jestor
Replied by Jestor on topic Defining Jedi and Sith
Just another hardliner, lol, looking to "define", rather than simply "accept"... :laugh: :laugh:

If a Jedi can act in a "non-jedi' way, and a Sith can act in a "non-sith" way, then the lines are blurry....

The biggest difference I see is that Sith tend to be more "prickly" (ala Watts), and Jedi tend to be more "gooey" (also Watts)...

But, even within those lines, there are differences...

The defining of classes is only good at the broadest of levels, and as further classification is done, eventually, you will get to the point of the "individual"...

Im here as "Jestor", and I call myself a "Jedi" because I feel that label best fits me... Khaos and Wescli, and Hannigan, Althea, Mindas, Opie, all call themselves what they call themselves because they feel that best describes them...


1) What defines Sith thought


Why ask a Jedi site what defines a Sith thought?

Would you come here and ask us about Buddhist thought? Pagan thought?

Sure we have some [jedi] members who might know a little bit, or have thoughts on the topic (I do), but, as I am not a Sith, I will leave what they define that as, up to them... :)


2) Does Sith-dom necessarily have to be the converse of Jedi thought


Seemingly to some, 'no' to others...

3) What is the relationship of Jedi to Sith


The same as any relationship...

Some of us get along right off the bat, some of us dont, and have to work at it a bit...

Its not all that complicated, lol...

On walk-about...

Sith ain't Evil...
Jedi ain't Saints....


"Bake or bake not. There is no fry" - Sean Ching


Rite: PureLand
Former Memeber of the TOTJO Council
Master: Jasper_Ward
Current Apprentices: Viskhard, DanWerts, Llama Su, Trisskar
Former Apprentices: Knight Learn_To_Know, Knight Edan, Knight Brenna, Knight Madhatter
Last edit: 7 years 10 months ago by Jestor.
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7 years 10 months ago #242156 by
Replied by on topic Defining Jedi and Sith
In short, Sith are survivors. Whereas Jedi are saviors.

The Sith, at best, may align him/herself with a group or tribe with the same goal. Fight, defend, and kill for one another but in the face of death, the Sith will turn thier back and run.

The Jedi, at worst, may spread themselves too thin in creating peaceful solutions, compromises may be thin or resentment runs too deep as the Jedi remain impartial. However, the Jedi will gladly give thier lives to save others.

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7 years 10 months ago #242189 by
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Jestor wrote: Just another hardliner, lol, looking to "define", rather than simply "accept"... :laugh: :laugh:


Right here in your first statement I see a problem. What is it I am accepting? How can I accept something with out an understanding of it? Our understanding would come from either personal experience or definition. I see no other choice. When it comes to personal experience that is where you derive your own personal sense of what it means to be a "Jedi" and why you call yourself that. But when you describe yourself to another in that manner, what does that mean? It seems that without a definition of terms the claim that you are Jedi becomes meaningless.

If we have no basis for terms I could easily call myself a "Jedi" and yet act in a "Sith" sort of way... (whatever that means). If we only have personal definitions of these terms there is no underlying basis of clarification. At some point there needs to be a universal description of the term based on some sort of agreed upon definition, right? Now that could be as general as one wants to make it but at some level don't we need to have some fundamental and universal idea of what it means to be a Jedi or a Sith?

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7 years 10 months ago #242192 by
Replied by on topic Defining Jedi and Sith

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: At some point there needs to be a universal description of the term based on some sort of agreed upon definition, right?


Absolutely agree. However "Universal" is nearly impossible to an extent if all of the Jedi orders do not use it. I have attempted several times to collaborate with all the orders to create a definition and code for Jedi but so far I (Just Jedi) is the only one to use it.

People don't like chains. They don't like deffinitions. They are afraid that...once Jedi is Defined...they will no longer fit the bill.

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7 years 10 months ago #242194 by Jestor

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Jestor wrote: Just another hardliner, lol, looking to "define", rather than simply "accept"... :laugh: :laugh:


Right here in your first statement I see a problem. What is it I am accepting? How can I accept something with out an understanding of it? Our understanding would come from either personal experience or definition. I see no other choice. When it comes to personal experience that is where you derive your own personal sense of what it means to be a "Jedi" and why you call yourself that. But when you describe yourself to another in that manner, what does that mean? It seems that without a definition of terms the claim that you are Jedi becomes meaningless.

If we have no basis for terms I could easily call myself a "Jedi" and yet act in a "Sith" sort of way... (whatever that means). If we only have personal definitions of these terms there is no underlying basis of clarification. At some point there needs to be a universal description of the term based on some sort of agreed upon definition, right? Now that could be as general as one wants to make it but at some level don't we need to have some fundamental and universal idea of what it means to be a Jedi or a Sith?


No?

I don't, anyway... lol....

Call yourself what you will....

"It" is all meaningless, unless we ascribe meaning...

Its why these circle-jerk conversations keep on going....

I say a jedi should wear a hood, some don't, so who is really a jedi?

And, who's the one that says "he who shouts the loudest", or, "talks the most circular" is the "right" opinion?

Lol....

What are you to be accepting of?

That "which is".... :)

I was just telling someone, that when you begin to understand, you cannot help to speak "guru-esque" because you cannot limit your thinking and/or box it (your thinking) in....

I don't say these things to be difficult,bit rather its just how I see them, and say them..


~sent from the Hitchhiker's Guide, inside my GalaxyS7~

On walk-about...

Sith ain't Evil...
Jedi ain't Saints....


"Bake or bake not. There is no fry" - Sean Ching


Rite: PureLand
Former Memeber of the TOTJO Council
Master: Jasper_Ward
Current Apprentices: Viskhard, DanWerts, Llama Su, Trisskar
Former Apprentices: Knight Learn_To_Know, Knight Edan, Knight Brenna, Knight Madhatter
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7 years 10 months ago - 7 years 10 months ago #242195 by
Replied by on topic Defining Jedi and Sith
Jedi are far from the first group to have an "unclear" term as their defining characteristic (irony :lol: ). For us the terms Jedi and the Force are some what ambiguous and open to interpretation. In the Tao Te Ching they discuss how the Tao can't truly be described in human words. For Miyomoto Musashi it was "the spirit of the thing itself" that couldn't really be defined. Others use words like "path," "way," "do," (pronounced like doe), "spirit," "universe," etc. Many of the people who use those terms cannot define them. It is something that transcends human tongues and must be experienced first hand.

If you think about it, defining it might be somewhat unique to western cultures who first used many gods (because surely one cannot be the cause of everything) and then just one God in the Abrahamic faiths. It is these religions that seek to rigorously define the holy what-have-you and even personify them simply because they feel a need to. I'm no religious expert but I feel like the definite group and the indefinite group might be nearer to even than I previously thought.

Trisskar wrote: They are afraid that...once Jedi is Defined...they will no longer fit the bill.


An argument can be made that those who most actively seek definition are more afraid that they already don't and seek validation from an outside source. I'm perfectly fine with being a Jedi in these "unclear" terms because to me it is clear, I just don't know how to make it clear to you (general you). But you know what, that doesn't matter to me. You can think whatever you want, I am secure in the fact that I fit my indescribable definition of Jedi whether you understand what I mean or not.

Edit: Fixed name. Sorry Trisskar, I accidentally put in your old name. Fixed it though. :laugh:
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7 years 10 months ago #242196 by
Replied by on topic Defining Jedi and Sith

Goken wrote:

Kitsu Tails wrote: They are afraid that...once Jedi is Defined...they will no longer fit the bill.


An argument can be made that those who most actively seek definition are more afraid that they already don't and seek validation from an outside source. I'm perfectly fine with being a Jedi in these "unclear" terms because to me it is clear, I just don't know how to make it clear to you (general you). But you know what, that doesn't matter to me. You can think whatever you want, I am secure in the fact that I fit my indescribable definition of Jedi whether you understand what I mean or not.


Thats all well and good. When your just being you ;)

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