ORIGINAL SIN

this point in the conversation has reminded me of the sort of contradictory nature of "wisdom" (whatever THAT means lol)

particularly i am looking at these two ideas:

Adi wrote: To me, sin is brokenness. We are all broken, each and every one of us

and

Snowy Aftermath wrote: I'm partial to a Wu Wei view of the whole "sin" issue. Do people accuse the planets of sinning as they move about the sun? Does a flower sin if it grows three leaves instead of two?

personally, im not too big on "broken", i prefer "unpolished" lol the idea not that I am naturally irredeemable, so much as that:

Wescli Wardest wrote: That this isn’t as good as I get.

all i have to do is look back at my own past decisions to see that I am not nearly as good as I could be

BUT

I have the hope that by committing myself to a set of moral standards and disciplines, that I can improve

we all feel that way i guess, which is at least partly what brings us here

but these quoted posts bring to mind an interesting example of the relativism of cultural wisdoms: while everyone can benefit generally from the ideas of non attachment and the relinquishment of desire

in a rigidly hierarchical and collectivist culture, where a person's whole future is already laid out for them at birth by the simple fact of who their parents are, these concepts become absolutely necessary for general contentment for a great majority of the population

if you are born in the lower class for instance, with no real choice about what you will do with your life regardless of your personal capabilities or ambitions, then being able to say "i am not attached to xyz" is the right idea

in fact at any class you are still pretty likely to find yourself already committed to a position and in association with individuals you would not choose if you had the luxury

there is a huge emphasis on accepting things as they are

in fact that is one of the central messages of eastern philosophies: what can i do to fix myself?
NOTHING: there's nothing to do! nothing to fix! this is all silliness of breaking and fixing

chop wood, and look at the mountains! lol

and this is good for all of us

but

in my culture, where many of us are in an essentially "sink or swim" free-for-all, the expectation - and need - is the opposite: we say "follow your dreams" and "the world is your oyster" and "go make a name for yourself"

and living up to these ideas requires quite a bit of attachment and desire, we call it commitment, dedication, determination, tenacity, ect

but not only that, we often need a high degree of social effectiveness, and we need to have the ability to make quick decisions in - lets say UNCERTAIN situations, and those decisions have to be "right" or else there are serious consequences

so, i do my best to be mindful of the culture and era that I live in and how i can reconcile the best of each

what i personally love about being Jedi is that I have the freedom to say "i see the value of this, and so I am going to keep it"

I see the value of accepting that I am unpolished, or broken if you prefer, and that I must work and strive for improvement

I also see the value in being ok with the fact that I am a natural product of a the universe, and that exist, just as I am, already complete and already perfect in my natural orbit

i think its great to wrap my head around the idea that i can be A and B at the same time, even if they seem to conflict (lol "THERE IS NO CONFLICT")

OB1Shinobi wrote: this point in the conversation has reminded me of the sort of contradictory nature of "wisdom" (whatever THAT means lol)

particularly i am looking at these two ideas:

Adi wrote: To me, sin is brokenness. We are all broken, each and every one of us

and

Snowy Aftermath wrote: I'm partial to a Wu Wei view of the whole "sin" issue. Do people accuse the planets of sinning as they move about the sun? Does a flower sin if it grows three leaves instead of two?

personally, im not too big on "broken", i prefer "unpolished" lol the idea not that I am naturally irredeemable, so much as that:

Wescli Wardest wrote: That this isn’t as good as I get.

all i have to do is look back at my own past decisions to see that I am not nearly as good as I could be

BUT

I have the hope that by committing myself to a set of moral standards and disciplines, that I can improve

we all feel that way i guess, which is at least partly what brings us here

but these quoted posts bring to mind an interesting example of the relativism of cultural wisdoms: while everyone can benefit generally from the ideas of non attachment and the relinquishment of desire

in a rigidly hierarchical and collectivist culture, where a person's whole future is already laid out for them at birth by the simple fact of who their parents are, these concepts become absolutely necessary for general contentment for a great majority of the population

if you are born in the lower class for instance, with no real choice about what you will do with your life regardless of your personal capabilities or ambitions, then being able to say "i am not attached to xyz" is the right idea

in fact at any class you are still pretty likely to find yourself already committed to a position and in association with individuals you would not choose if you had the luxury

there is a huge emphasis on accepting things as they are

in fact that is one of the central messages of eastern philosophies: what can i do to fix myself?
NOTHING: there's nothing to do! nothing to fix! this is all silliness of breaking and fixing

chop wood, and look at the mountains! lol

and this is good for all of us

but

in my culture, where many of us are in an essentially "sink or swim" free-for-all, the expectation - and need - is the opposite: we say "follow your dreams" and "the world is your oyster" and "go make a name for yourself"

and living up to these ideas requires quite a bit of attachment and desire, we call it commitment, dedication, determination, tenacity, ect

but not only that, we often need a high degree of social effectiveness, and we need to have the ability to make quick decisions in - lets say UNCERTAIN situations, and those decisions have to be "right" or else there are serious consequences

so, i do my best to be mindful of the culture and era that I live in and how i can reconcile the best of each

what i personally love about being Jedi is that I have the freedom to say "i see the value of this, and so I am going to keep it"

I see the value of accepting that I am unpolished, or broken if you prefer, and that I must work and strive for improvement

I also see the value in being ok with the fact that I am a natural product of a the universe, and that exist, just as I am, already complete and already perfect in my natural orbit

i think its great to wrap my head around the idea that i can be A and B at the same time, even if they seem to conflict (lol "THERE IS NO CONFLICT")

Oh ob... you hit one of the most toughest things I think in Jedi ism to explain and even tougher to teach. The syncretic twist of all being utilized. That's a tough one and I pride my self on my search for it yet I still search for some times more than one idea to exist. For me it's fine I let be yet the cogs are slowed when more than one person is added into the equation. Partly wanting to know other views and partly I've asked to see if I can... let the others exist, even praise or build. ...
Shh I'm practicing lol

Wescli Wardest wrote: I like the idea that we are all broken in some way or another. To me, that is awesome because it means I have room for improvement. That this isn’t as good as I get.

With respect, this is as good as I get. Right now. And I'm going to appreciate that. Living my life in expectation of some future version of me isn't a way for me to be happy right now.

I refuse to accept labels like "broken" for myself. I'm not broken, I'm awesome. And so are you

(But as I've said before, we all have unique ways of seeing the same issue... and that is awesome too )

At the very least, you dont have to go off the premise that your broken to improve.

Khaos wrote: At the very least, you dont have to go off the premise that your broken to improve.

Yes! Your car can be brand new and still get sparkly seat covers and a new stereo put in. It wasn't because anything was wrong with it, you just wanted to make it cooler

The original sin was the disobedience of the original humans. Two results came from their action: the first was knowledge of good and evil; and the punishment: exile from paradise. For Jews, the human response to the exile is obedience to the commandments. Following the Law brings the Jew back from exile into a relationship with the divine. For Christians, the restoration of the original divine relationship comes through the sacrifice of Jesus, that is, his obedience onto death. For Muslims, Allah's first act following the disobedience was to forgive the original humans. Each Muslim's personal response is submission (obedience) to the will of Allah. There is, of course, much more to this myth. It's impact on Western civilization is profound and it remains the essential myth for about three billion believers.

There is, of course, much more to this myth. It's impact on Western civilization is profound and it remains the essential myth for about three billion believers.

I'm uncomfortable with blind faith. It gives power to others and I wonder if it it handled well.

I think the original sin was comitted by he who created it.

Im other words, God (speaking in terms of Christianity), created all that exists in the universe, and in doing so is also responsible for the creation of sin.

God is the origin of sin.

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Kohadre wrote: I think the original sin was comitted by he who created it.

Im other words, God (speaking in terms of Christianity), created all that exists in the universe, and in doing so is also responsible for the creation of sin.

God is the origin of sin.

Sent from my SCH-I535 using Tapatalk

Very different view thank you K
ohadre

Well...by Mormon way of thinking, we HAD to "fall" in order to attain a greater state being...without that circumstance, we would've remained both perfect and stagnant...like the Angelic hosts. We knew(at the time, for me) that it was God's plan and the proper response was to be thankful for it and play along...so that one day we might be Gods ourselves.