ORIGINAL SIN

I think that our understanding and feelings on the concept of original sin, and just sin in general really, is seriously reflected in our own experiences. My feelings on it differ vastly to others here.

My own dislike of original sin specifically is that it tells me I'm bad even before I've done anything, that some (sorry, non existent) people did something and screwed it up for me, and I must pay for that...

If there is an original sin it's not your fault.

Adi: I can see that. With an unbroken, whole person, there is no need to improve. Your perfect. Reminds me of Kintsugi Art, only the pot was never broken per se, but started out that way...or maybe we spend the first part of our life picking up the pieces we want to be a part of us(or are given pieces with instruction to hold on to them), and some where along the way those pieces are put together or discarded until we have what we want. Then we spend the rest of our lives fitting them together. If we're lucky enough(or satisfied enough)to have all the pieces we need, we become infinitely more beautiful and useful.

My understanding of Original sin, how it came about and why and when it became what it is today.

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Originally, Original sin was a way of the Church explaining why we were in need of salvation. Why it was important for Jesus to come and “pay” for our sins.

In the Story of Genesis, man was made in the reflection/image of God. With that understanding one, who believes God to be without sin (as we believe the Force to be without sin), would have to accept that man’s original design was as God or the Force and without sin. Sin was originally construed as transgression, so the title should actually read, “Original Transgression.” But as we all know the Bible has been translated multiple times by varying groups with different agendas and understandings. _{One of the newest versions of the Bible was created with a Lesbian and a homosexual setting on the board, which left out or altered certain verses that did not give to their belief structure… side note.}

During the Dark Ages, the church went to using indulgences to pay for “sins” committed as a way for the individual to spend less time in purgatory and as a means to finance the church. I believe it is during this era in history where the idea of “Original Sin” came from and perverted into the understanding we have of it today.

Back to what was written in the Christian Bible…

After the original transgression was committed Adam and Eve were cast out of paradise and then subsequently cursed by God. Their curse was so that man would toil in the earth to provide his food and that the earth and the animals would rebel against him in his efforts and that woman would suffer extreme pain and discomfort during child birth and be a servant to man. The serpent got it bad too, but that doesn’t really apply to what we are discussing I think. So the president of how life “is” and what we go through every day was set at that moment. Nice guy hu!?!?

And that was part of the importance of Jesus coming, to live and toil as one of us but without sin. And as a man, once he started his teaching, there is no record of his working, just relying on the generosity of others, his devotion to God, and his ability to go through life without transgression, of the rules laid out in the Torah (which were given to man by the mouth of God). Which is one of the things the Pharisees tried repeatedly to get him to do, transgress. This act was supposed to be an example of humanly perfection on earth and a guide as to how to live. And with his “wrongful” death, our sins were “paid for,” or in other words the curse was no longer valid for those that believed in and followed the word of God.

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edit added...
Side note was place to show how things change depending on era and who is doing the translations. No offence is meant by it's mentioning.

Adi wrote:
I was going to stay out of this thread since I know that the moment I step into it, I'm a marked man, but I disagree, with a caveat. I don't think original sin ought to be used to guilt-trip people or talk about how wretched humanity is. I don't think anyone should, say, talk to a kid and tell them that they're a horrible sinner because of Adam's rebellion in Hebrew creation myths. But I think there is merit in admitting that we're all guilty.

To me, sin is brokenness. We are all broken,

Hey Adi, Please don't take this the wrong way but you seem to have a bit of a martyr complex. I for one am not here like a hungry lion waiting to pounce on the "Christian". I don't think anyone else is either. I enjoy and welcome your comments just as much as anyone else's and your views are just as valid as anyone else's.

I don't necessarily agree with them... lol... but that doesn't make them invalid, just different from mine. Its discussing these differences in an adult and open manner that allows us to evolve as human beings I think. So just keep on "bringing it on" because I welcome the chance to grow!

As for my personal views, I think we are already perfect in our imperfection. If we were perfect beings in a perfect world what would we do all day? Descriptions of heaven are like this and to me it makes no sense. I would die of boredom. The world you call broken, to me is a world of opportunity. To use an IT term, strife and pain and suffering are not bugs in the system, they are features! Yea they suck but without them we would be dull people.

If we consider the idea that there is a sentient God being somewhere in the universe that created everything, I think these things would be a necessary design feature and not something that he never intended but got out of his control. This is the height of the idea that there is no destination on our journey, (like heaven or "Buddha-ville" etc) only the path. If you consider it in this context the idea of sin becomes meaningless.

Adi wrote: To me, sin is brokenness. We are all broken, each and every one of us, *especially* the prideful ones who say that they are whole. Our world is broken too. For some reason we spend our lives trying to elude this fact, or deceiving ourselves into thinking that we're better. But we're not. Our world has always been broken, because everything in it is inherently unreliable — especially people. So in that respect, "sin" has been with us since the very beginning.

But I firmly believe it is possible to better ourselves, to be more than just "slaves to sin," as it were. In the Buddhist tradition I was a part of, it took the form of the idea of everyone attaining Buddhahood in this life — not in a future life, but this one. In the Christian tradition I belong to now, it's in the form of our baptismal vows: "I will [overcome sin], with God's help." I suspect in our Jedi paths we all come up with something similar, fitting our own place in life.

There is nothing wrong with acknowledging our brokenness. I have found that my own brokenness has led to its own solution, but only because I acknowledge it and treat it with the same love and care that I *try* to treat every part of myself with (though, often without success.) I can think of worse, more socially-irresponsible ideas Christianity has produced. An eternity of hellfire and torture, anyone?

I think that is a very interesting view on original sin. I really enjoy that idea. We are all broken, the world is broken, and everything has always been that way. It is both then okay to be broken and possible to become less broken.

Thank you.

Adi wrote:

Locksley wrote: "Original Sin" is one of the most socially-irresponsible and personally damaging concepts to come out of Christianity. It's preposterous, and serves absolutely no positive purpose what so ever.

I was going to stay out of this thread since I know that the moment I step into it, I'm a marked man, but I disagree, with a caveat. I don't think original sin ought to be used to guilt-trip people or talk about how wretched humanity is. I don't think anyone should, say, talk to a kid and tell them that they're a horrible sinner because of Adam's rebellion in Hebrew creation myths. But I think there is merit in admitting that we're all guilty.

To me, sin is brokenness. We are all broken, each and every one of us, *especially* the prideful ones who say that they are whole. Our world is broken too. For some reason we spend our lives trying to elude this fact, or deceiving ourselves into thinking that we're better. But we're not. Our world has always been broken, because everything in it is inherently unreliable — especially people. So in that respect, "sin" has been with us since the very beginning.

But I firmly believe it is possible to better ourselves, to be more than just "slaves to sin," as it were. In the Buddhist tradition I was a part of, it took the form of the idea of everyone attaining Buddhahood in this life — not in a future life, but this one. In the Christian tradition I belong to now, it's in the form of our baptismal vows: "I will [overcome sin], with God's help." I suspect in our Jedi paths we all come up with something similar, fitting our own place in life.

There is nothing wrong with acknowledging our brokenness. I have found that my own brokenness has led to its own solution, but only because I acknowledge it and treat it with the same love and care that I *try* to treat every part of myself with (though, often without success.) I can think of worse, more socially-irresponsible ideas Christianity has produced. An eternity of hellfire and torture, anyone?

If there is any marking it will not start here. Adi, I love learning. I love listening to others. I think your idea is valid. Is it like mine? No, but that's ok too. The idea is what is YOUR Idea of original sin. Thank you soooo much for answering. We are alive here in this Temple, and you are a very much part of it. Thanks Adi!
Ps I liked ur idea on original sin. Different. All of this is very helping. Please continue to respond Jedi. I love this place

I'm partial to a Wu Wei view of the whole "sin" issue. Do people accuse the planets of sinning as they move about the sun? Does a flower sin if it grows three leaves instead of two?

"Sin" implies that our understanding of things is superior to all other understandings. That our definition of how things work best is correct and that everything else must submit. I'm requiring this bear to live in my house and obey my rules, and I beat it when it doesn't obey. But it wasn't meant to be in a house because its a bear. I have to let it follow its own nature and quit applying my rules to it. It won't obey because it CAN'T. That's not its nature.

Snowy Aftermath wrote: I'm partial to a Wu Wei view of the whole "sin" issue. Do people accuse the planets of sinning as they move about the sun? Does a flower sin if it grows three leaves instead of two?

"Sin" implies that our understanding of things is superior to all other understandings. That our definition of how things work best is correct and that everything else must submit. I'm requiring this bear to live in my house and obey my rules, and I beat it when it can't obey. But it wasn't meant to be in a house because its a bear. I have to let it follow its own nature and quit applying my rules to it. It won't obey because it CAN'T. That's not its nature.

Im there right with you. The Wu Wei and un carved block are my stables some days . In these teachings I don't see any form of "sin" ...(or any Abrahamic ideas) . Thanks Snowy!

I like the idea that we are all broken in some way or another. To me, that is awesome because it means I have room for improvement. That this isn’t as good as I get.

I think that the ego, and past association with the idea of something being broken being “bad,” causes some to not like the taste of it. Sure, I can see that. I mean seriously, who likes being told there is something wrong with them?

I also don’t think that we ever achieve perfection. Why? Well, tell me what perfection is.

I do think that being able to recognize, admit to and work towards resolving personal issues is a wonderful thing and a part of why we are all here.

I have always felt that all people are at least a little broken in one way or another. And that imperfection is what makes us unique, like our own little quirks. Being broken or imperfect doesn’t mean wrong, dysfunctional or bad. It just means we have bumps, bruises and little things that make us different. Like an old work truck… they tend to be dented, scratched and usually there is something that doesn’t quite work right. But they also tend to be our favorite vehicle. My old Van I drive is just like that! And I love it! And not only do I love it; but, I trust it completely to get me where I need to go. Because I know it. I know its quirks, imperfections and little broken things (like the door handle that doesn’t work) and I wouldn’t trade it for a new car any day.