Jediism and/as a religion

I don't know that Jediism maintains the Force as separate from the Universe: ultimately, everything is 'part' of the Universe, and I've always felt that the Force is one of the natural mechanisms by which it operates. Even presupposing the existence of God (which, for reference, I don't - I'm Agnostic!), one could infer that such a being could 'create' the Universe, but also set up self-perpetuating mechanisms to ensure it's continuation. Evolution serves as a mechanism to enable life to grow, develop and advance beyond any 'original' specifications, and life perpetuates itself through procreation: thus, no deity or higher power needs to involve itself in the creation of every living thing: life does that automatically!

As far as Jediism as a religion goes, you have to remember why it was created in the first place: as a means for religious practitioners to continue following their faith within the structure of a Jedi Order. The idea was that anyone could be a Jedi: Christian, Buddhist, Muslim, Jew etc, provided they worked and lived within the tenets of the Jedi Order. The Force itself requires no reverence, nor worship: to a Jediist, simply living by the doctrines and methodological tenets of their faith was sufficient as a form of worship. Thus, the idea was never to supercede existing religious beliefs, but rather to incorporate them under the Jedi umbrella. You can believe that God is your saviour and that Christ died for you, or that the ultimate aspiration for any being is to reach Enlightenment, or that the words of the Prophet are sacred to Allah - regardless, these beliefs serve to reinforce their pursuit of the Jedi Path, rather than contradict it.

This is where the distinction came when looking at Jedi Realism: Jediism was religious in nature, and focused upon incorporating Jedi ideals into a person's religious life, serving as act of worship and as a living embodiment of those beliefs. Jedi Realists, however, aimed to change the individual beyond that: instead of exemplifying religious faith through their pursuit of the Jedi Path, they sought to become Jedi only, seeking an ideological path rather than a religious one: where benevolent acts and ethical behaviour were not the result of a sense that it was appropriate to their faith, but rather because of the sense that all things are connected through the Force, so ethical behaviour ultimately stems from the desire to serve the Force in a non-religious fashion: thus, life is sacred, but God...the existence of such isn't entirely held relevant. If such a being exists, that would not influence the path we walk. If not, then again, there's little difference. Thus, where Jediism and Jedi Realism made their primary distinction was in the role of the Jedi Path: one, as an act of worship, the other as an expression of ideological choice and personal journey.

Worth noting I'm speaking of the origins of the two movements: this was 10-15 years ago now. I daresay many things have changed, perhaps rendering the distinctions more meaningless than they used to be, but that's how things were. Just thought I'd add my two cents, so to speak!

Aslyn wrote: As far as Jediism as a religion goes, you have to remember why it was created in the first place: as a means for religious practitioners to continue following their faith within the structure of a Jedi Order

Source, please?

Past experience, and having been there when it happened Sadly the sources for that disappeared years ago, from what I can tell: the original Jediism sites are gone, as are many of the original ones used for Jedi Realism. A lot's changed in the Community over the past decade, and even the older sites have transferred to newer places, losing many of their Archives in the process. thejedi.org is gone, the Force Academy has moved and become far less active, Fatum Operandi is gone, Unified Jedi Order died a while ago (as, sadly, did it's creator rather recently). There's a lot that has been lost, I'm sad to say, and I only ever kept a few hundred pages of notes (mostly training manuals written by others, or my own, of course). Most of those pertain to Jedi Realism, rather than Jediism, alas.

to me a jedi is a person who is commited to truth, personal excellence, and service

anyone who lives by that commitment is a jedi

in a thousand years

(if the species survives, which it probably will because there will be jedi around to see to it)

the definition i just gave will be the nucleus of the jedi community

this is not a definition i feel it necessary to impose on others

nor is it just some random thing ive made up

every sincere jedi that ive ever spoken with can say that they embody that definition to the best of their ability

becoming a jedi proper is to make this commitment a conscious proccess

The Jedi in the original movies were referenced as being religious/ a religion, not that it matters but still that gives it some foothold for those who view religion in useful terms...

The religious elements of any path I associate to the training of the subconscious mind, pure and simple, because in my experience 'spiritual experience' relies on the extra power of the subconscious. Valid mechanisms to this seem to include belief and faith. Whether that connects to some supernature or just broader human experience is not important to this end of experience, but is a great place to associate concepts of the Force
:whistle:

This is a large part of my Jedi training and so the concept of religion fits perfectly. A lot of media seems to talk about religion being the human activities of operational management/mismanagement and the question of truth about dogma or practices, but I find those irrelevant to the root purpose of religions for spiritual growth. A lot of the time they could just use the word organization instead of religion and it would be more accurate use of a label IMO.

In that regard I view the Jedi Realist v Jediist argument a bit weird, and so instead I tend to joke Jediism is shorthand for Jedi Realism, because I'm sure we are all Jedi Idealists at heart.
:silly:

steamboat28 wrote: Yeah, except that Jediism (at least in canon) is panentheism, not proper pantheism, because it maintains that the Force is separate from the universe itself (i.e., the Force exists in the Universe but isn't the universe), and the Force is a singular, eternal, animating force in the universe.

I don't think it tries to define the Force to that level of detail. They discuss approaches to understanding, not material truth of something... its meant to be experiential (but not to the dramatic extent shown), and its nature probably meant to be beyond the capacity for us to understand - which points again to mystery, curiosity and experience as fundamental elements of the path, IMO, and also powerful drivers for engagement, growth, and mastery of life.

Panentheism is, on this view, making the Force into a high 'deity' over a universe of pantheistic attributes. This is problematic in that Force is reified, that is, the concept or principle is made into something concrete, or as having being, or as being a distinct and separate reality. My belief is that the Force is a symbol for the perceived structure or order of the cosmos (or universe, etc.). In this regard, Force is synonymous with Heraclitus' logos. The Force then is a symbol for the order of things. It has no reality other than how humans represent it. As a species, human beings have developed the capacity to perceive the order of things and in this way is it an expression of our rationality. The logos (or Dao or Force, etc.) is like a force or thought that 'steers' or orders all things, but it isn't, not really. I don't believe the Force is the kind of power as it is depicted in Lucas' fictional universe.

ive recently come to two conclusions about the force andnmy interaction with the jedi community (not suprisingly) is at the heart of at least obe of them

ive always belived that the force speaks to all of us equally

that is its always whispering in our ears or shouting in our faces and every oncein a while it even grabs us by the scruff of the neckk and shakes the shitake out of us

but ive come to realise that at an internal level we all speak our own language, even where we use the same words really

and so we all relate to the force in our own way

for this reason i am open to the wisdom that the force is whatever a sincere individual says it is, for them

for this reason it is mandatory for me in my own being to acknoledge everybody's interpretation equally while keeping the confidence that a theory or description of the force on which we can for the most part all agree will be reeached (or has been reached) from the experience of heing exposd to so many personal descriptions of the force that the mind finally CLICKS tothe common theme within them all

i do belive in universalenergy - including life energy and personal energy

my latest evolution of belife is to begin from premise that everything is energy

im energy water is energy electicity is energy mars is energy the spoon is a form of energy ect ect

then move to acceptence of the essential truth of the "law" that energy cannotbe created or desytroyed but can only change its form or shift states

and then extrapolate that ultimately all energy is the same thing

ithat there is only one energy and it covers the full spectrum of existence a d has learned how to express itself in a seeminglyninfinite number of states

in fact it seems to be playing a game of using one form of itself to learn how to become another form of itself

whichn i think is pretty clever

(the energy is clever i mean, not necessarily my theory)

To paraphrase Joseph Campbell, "we are all manifestations of the Force" (I can't remember if he actually says Buddha consciousness or the divine, but the message is the same!)

Star Forge wrote: I want to know why you all chose Jediism, what you mean or expect it to be, and what it is to you

Hiya Star Forge...

Nice to see you...

This is a bit long, so, I apologize to everyone up front, :lol:....

In 1977, I saw the first movie...

I had already been attending religion classes for a couple if years, Sunday school too...

Like, I think, all children, I ask a lot of questions... Of myself now, but then, of things I was told... Ok, maybe things I'm told still too, lol...

I felt more explanation in that episode, than I ever did by those who tried to answer my questions...

And, then the one person Luke is going to learn from, dies...

So, he is kinda on his own for figuring things out...

He didn't grow up, going to church every Sunday with Uncle and Aunt... At least we were never lead to think this... I know men that remind me of Uncle Owen, and they find their religion in their lives, rather than church... Maybe the Aunt would take a little Luke, as Moms and Aunts do, lol, to church, but we never know...

And, when Obi-Wan talks about the Force, , Luke asks "What is it?"

So, as Luke had to figure stuff out (later being able to ask Yoda), I thought asking questions and figuring stuff out is the best path...

This was my path here... A very succinct version, lol...

I didnt know "pantheism" and "monotheism" and "secular" and so many other terms you guys use... And "logical fallacies"... Freaking logical fallacies... lol... I learned that using them, doesn't make my arguement wrong, but, it can make it seem questionable... Some here, pride themselves on their logic... I don't know them (the fallacies) but, as I don't EVER use them intentionally, I can only assume the accuser feels I'm not worth the conversation... lol, OK, I'm good with that... (sorry, stick in my craw for too much logic, not enough, uh, "gooeyness", lol...)

I kinda do now... I still have to look them up, but just to make sure I'm right in my understanding... :lol:... I'm not very smart about these terms, but I've only had 5 years of using them to learn them, lol...

But I do know the ideas they symbolize... I do understand the concepts.. I just have to look them up to remember which is which... :lol:...

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Like a monk (idk what else to compare it too) I've contemplated (meditated on?) life down to the nuts and bolts of it all... But not from school... Not theory, but experience.....

Why is grass "green"? Oh sure, chlorophyll, but why "green"? Why not call "gyroscope"? One word is as arbitrary as another... We've just agreed on these words we use, definitions we have... Yea, yea, it evolved there, but, the first different gutteral noises began to identify the world, a howl might have symbolized a canine, a roar or meow meant feline... And somewhere, the gutteral noise sounding like "green" became the word we associate with the color...

How about "power"? I baby sat children, helped my mom with a daycare... Had pets and a younger sister... Was I always the good boy? Was I a bully out of curiosity? Was I just not thinking about the consequences as I was arrested for domestic battery? Warned for mob action? Kicked out of Sears for shoplifting?

How about when I stuck the barrel in my mouth?

Did drugs.. Broke into houses... Ran my car I to a telephone pole 4 times... Bang, back up, hit it again BANG, back up do it again...

Been at the mercy of others... Dad hitting me so hard, so many times that my head felt like jello... lol, literally ... Having a big naked dude sitting on my chest punching the shit outta my face... Sitting in a holding cell for questioning... Talking to a priest about masterbation and sin...

Defended my female friend against a group of guys... Taught my sister to drive... Raised some pretty terrific kids...

Never cheated on a wife, while the marriage was solid... Once they cheated, it was over...

Give to bums, charity, delivered food to those who couldn't afford it....

Ran for public office, and work in the public sector... So I can keep serving the people...

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Anyway...

I learned, f-ed up, and did good too...

Thought about those things, tried to fix old mistakes, and make sure there were no future ones in similar veins...

I had to learn from these things on my own...

I had no guru either...

And, none of these books, and theologies everyone speaks of...

I learned them all here... I joined TOTJO because it was time... I needed more than I could do for myself.... Needed to get things out of my head...

I did my own thinking.... My own conclusions...

Those who look to the fiction as canon, are, in my opinion, trading one fictional story for another....

But, if it works for them, more power to them...

Hopefully, they are less lost than they were/could be...

I uses to say, "I'm agnostic, but kinda like the Jedi... there's a 'force', but Im not sure what it is..."

I'm still not sure what it is, except to say "everything"... And, I'm not agnostic anymore...

I am only Jedi...

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Some points I see...

Star Forge" wrote: From what I have seen of Jediism, it is sort of a "come as you are"

Yes... this is how I see it too...

Who is anyone to tell me how to.live my life?

Live your life?

Dont tread on me, and I won't on you, and if i do, I will apologize...

I won't tell you "the offence is on you", that's just crap...

I would hope for the same considerations...

No? That's OK too... You don't see the world like I do...

Star Forge wrote: What is Jediism? Is it a philosophy? A religion? Does it require a belief in some higher power, no matter how vague? Or it is truly as multifaceted as Hinduism, and accepts all of the above without contradiction?

I go with "multifaceted"...

Star Forge wrote: I have read the doctrine and all, but it's still a bit vague to me.

You know why its vague?

Cause we, as humans, are...

We can both look at the same thing, and see it different....

The simple line "I am Jedi" cannot be agreed on by people, and you wonder about a whole doctrine?

Lol...

Burn_Pheonix wrote: I would also add that I do have quite a definite 'vision' of the Force that is certainly no more vague than the concept of 'God', but as I belief that all religions are essentially different paths to the same destination I acknowledge that my interpretation of the Force likely differs from others

"There are many paths up the mountain."

Steamboat wrote: Yeah, except that Jediism (at least in canon) is panentheism, not proper pantheism, because it maintains that the Force is separate from the universe itself (i.e., the Force exists in the Universe but isn't the universe), and the Force is a singular, eternal, animating force in the universe

Hmmm...

Not something I agree with....

I think it is everything...

that regard I view the Jedi Realist v Jediist argument a bit weird, and so instead I tend to joke Jediism is shorthand for Jedi Realism, because I'm sure we are all Jedi Idealists at heart.

Yea....

The distinction seems old and tired...

No offense Aslyn...

I called myself Jedi (halfheartedly I'll admit) before these community distinctions were an issue...

I'm Jedi, and I'm real...

Religion/philosophy/realist/realism/jediism = splitting hairs...

Oh, I'm not going to take offense at that one, Jestor We all follow the Jedi Path, one way or the other. If people are happy to dismiss the distinctions, I'm all for it. I am, however, aware that some need them, and I'm fine with acknowledging them if that's what's required. Have to fit everybody in somehow, though the Force alone knows how we manage it...