Jediism and/as a religion

I was just doing some reading completely unrelated to Jediism, but it brought my thoughts here.

I am not intending to start a debate, and I am not here with any agenda. To those of you that know me, leave your thoughts and prejudices at the door. If I write again in this thread, it will only be for further questions.

I want to know why you all chose Jediism, what you mean or expect it to be, and what it is to you.

This is my perception of the whole thing, and correct me if I say anything wrong. I do not want to speak in error about anything. From what I have seen of Jediism, it is sort of a "come as you are" deism or agnosticism, for those who adopt it as a religion or spirituality. It seems that most Jedi (but not all- more on that in a minute) look at it as a faith that doesn't assign a name or extremely specific attributes to God or a higher power, except perhaps "the Force." This is actually what drew me to it initially. While I have been a religious person for almost five years, which means I had been religious for two years before approaching Jediism, I was drawn to it at a time when I began investigating Freemasonry. To me, the two bear striking similarities, aside from the secretive and exclusive nature of Freemasonry and the openness of Jediism. They both welcome both the religious and non-religious, both demand religious tolerance, and both want to better a person morally, as well as spiritually, if the person wishes, without imposing religious dogma or too many rules (side note: Freemasonry is usually very tolerant once you're in, and there's a wide array of diversity to be seen). I ultimately decided against Jediism, and have ceased involvement in Freemasonry due to the fact that I prefer to take my religion as it is, without adding in other philosophies or belief systems, but that's just my way of thinking, and I'm not calling anybody wrong for thinking otherwise. It's an issue of the brain, not the heart. I just think concretely that way. I initially was moderately involved in Sufi Islam, but now am two months away from being baptized into the Eastern Orthodox Church.

On the other hand, I've seen people claim both Jediism and atheism, which makes me wonder if Jediism is similar to Hinduism in that it accepts full-fledged atheists, or if Jedi atheists are more like "Christian atheists," who basically believe that Jesus was a good person, but reject most of the Bible, tradition, a belief in God, and so on (Jewish atheists would possibly be another good example, but the question of "who is a Jew" would make the comparison too convoluted).

What is Jediism? Is it a philosophy? A religion? Does it require a belief in some higher power, no matter how vague? Or it is truly as multifaceted as Hinduism, and accepts all of the above without contradiction?

I have read the doctrine and all, but it's still a bit vague to me. I just want to hear what you all came here for, why you joined (or didn't), and what you get from it, or expect to experience.

The perception of vagueness is quite correct in many ways. There is not a strict, let alone agreed upon definition of Jediism or of Jedi.

Since pantheism is in a multitude of respects indistinguishable from atheism, it is not a stretch to imagine a Jedi being an atheist also. I shall leave it to the philosophers to decide whether Jediism qualifies as a religion. Since Jediism has no unified definition as such, I would argue that it is more of a philosophy of life than a religion. There are no strictly required or prohibited beliefs but somebody who barely stands for any Jedi ideal will likely not qualify as a Jedi. I have heard people who argued that belief in the Force is a required one, though only few will specify what they mean by the Force. Others will disagree. If on the other hand someone stands for passionate and aggressive resolution or escalation of conflicts they seek for the conflict's own sake, I don't think any Jedi would welcome them among their midst or call them one of their own at this point.

I for one care for labels only in so far as they carry a message. To call yourself a Jedi really barely tells the rest of us anything about you, even less than calling yourself a Catholic or a Hanafi would. It seems to me that you view it the same way, too, given how you are free to swap your label at will irrespective of whether you believe anything those labels supposedly represent. By that token, feel free to adopt or reject the Jedi label as much as you please. We would only care about the person underneath them all anyway.

You also asked why we individually joined and what we gained.
Judging by my early writings here it seems that I was in a state of severe insecurity and likely emotional distress when I joined. The prescript to calm oneself and to focus on the moment was likely helpful to quite some extent. The IP and especially my early apprenticeship contributed a lot to who I am today eventhough to pinpoint specifics would be difficult, ignorant of where I'd have gone if it weren't for that.

I think the main problem with defining jediism as a religion is the aspect of worship. We have nearly every other definition of a religion (agreed practices is not necessary really). In my experience we don't worship the Force, we acknowledge it's existence and that it is part of everything, including ourselves (hence the introspection because to know ourselves will help us to 'know' the Force). With regards to agreed practices a) most religions practices are centred on worship so it is irrelevant here and b) most pagan/heathen religions (including Hinduism) agree one their deities but the practices of worshipping them are very personal and so differ for each practitioner.

The creed and maxims etc are definitely a philosophy for living your life. I think belief in the Force, though, pushes it into religion.

With regards to why I joined: I have had my beliefs for a long time, but researched other religions and attended congregations etc in an attempt to find a community of like minded individuals. I eventually found that here. With respect to my actual beliefs, as I studied other religions I noticed essential similarities between them and worked on my own beliefs to accommodate a 'common' underlying belief. And that is where I am. To me, all religions 'fit' with jediism (and it seems I'm not the only one who thinks so given the special interest groups etc) though I do not adhere to another system of belief myself.

I would also add that I do have quite a definite 'vision' of the Force that is certainly no more vague than the concept of 'God', but as I belief that all religions are essentially different paths to the same destination I acknowledge that my interpretation of the Force likely differs from others.

"Doubt is an uncomfortable position, but certainty is a ridiculous one" - Voltaire

To me, Jediism is a little like Buddhist dharma. It is a dialogue, a process, a method, a guiding hand through the forest - but even less prescriptive than Buddhism. After all, there are loads of ways through the forest. The Temple, here, is a little like the Buddhist sangha - its a community, and a place to thrash things out.

I completely agree with Gisteron. Don't worry too much about labels - unless you're doing that for the fun of it! I like it here because nobody claims to have come up with anything new (like some "new" "religions": Mormonsim, Scientology). Just look at the Initiate Program - its like a distilled gallop through much of accumulated human wisdom. You have that guidance, but with none of the cultural baggage of older "religions" or narrower philosophical systems (war, inquisition, missionary efforts, unfashionable morals) that I personally feel uncomfortable associating with.

You will carve your own path whatever you choose - but you don't need to do that alone. You can follow the Eastern Orthodox path and be a Jedi

I still struggle with the notion that you can't have your cake and eat it

I want to know why you all chose Jediism, what you mean or expect it to be, and what it is to you.

It's difficult to say that I 'chose' Jediism..
I came here at a time when I realised that the way I thought, the way I dealt with things, with people, was not working and it was affecting me in a negative way. I googled Jediism out of curiosity one day and the doctrine appeared to me everything I already believed in, but could not always express. So I stayed. Unlike with other religions, I didn't feel like I had to force fit beliefs into my own system.

On the other hand, I've seen people claim both Jediism and atheism, which makes me wonder if Jediism is similar to Hinduism in that it accepts full-fledged atheists, or if Jedi atheists are more like "Christian atheists," who basically believe that Jesus was a good person, but reject most of the Bible, tradition, a belief in God,

I don't claim atheism, I claim a belief of 'I don't care if there's a God, it makes no difference to me', I also don't believe we can know if there's one or not, so you'd probably call me more agnostic.
I'm not religious though about Jediism.. I've wrote about this a lot recently but it's only viewable by apprentices and above... where I've said that the idea of religion, clergy etc within Jediism is a puzzle piece that doesn't fit for me. I understand why others do it, but it's like going to a foreign country and knowing the language, but not fitting in with the culture.

What is Jediism? Is it a philosophy? A religion? Does it require a belief in some higher power, no matter how vague? Or it is truly as multifaceted as Hinduism, and accepts all of the above without contradiction?

It depends how you believe. As I stated above, I am not religious.. for me Jediism is not a religion, it is merely an expression of beliefs that I have. Take away the word and I'm still all the things I am, it's just the word 'Jedi' tells people in a word a general idea of what I am. It's probably more appropriate to say that I'm a member of the Temple of the Jedi Order, than it is to say that I am a Jedi, because the community as a whole doesn't have a proper definition. 'Jedi' means a hundred things and more, to each person it is different.

The only higher power I believe in is... well.. I don't believe in one. The Force to me is energy and the connection between everything. It is an acknowledgement that I am not a disconnected part, I am part of the whole. I don't believe the Force can be strong in some areas or weak in others, I don't believe the Force can 'guide' us. It is everywhere, in everything, but it is down to us to see the connections and understand the implications of them.

I don't think vagueness of a trait of Jediism is a bad thing. I think it allows people to expand their minds without having to conform to something they don't believe in.

I just want to hear what you all came here for, why you joined (or didn't), and what you get from it, or expect to experience.

I don't think I can tell you what I expect, only what I've got from being here. The amazing support and friendliness of the people here, and the challenge I get from thread discussion, the conversations I have over PM, and my apprenticeship, have allowed me to break out of my restricted and narrow view of things and develop more positive views and behaviours.

It seems safe to say that people can take different things from jediism and so whether or not they consider it a religion will depend on what they take from it.

I know of people who identify themselves as Christian but do not believe in God or heaven and hell, they attend church for the community and agree with the lessons and message of the bible (I.e. be good to each other). If Christianity was not officially classed as a religion then technically for these few people it could be considered more a philosophy.

In addition to Gisteron's identifying Jediism as having aspects of both pantheism and atheism, I would add monism: the belief or acknowledgement that reality is one; and animism - particularly, for example, Shinto. Force symbolism has similarities to kami. On this view, Jediism can also have atheistic characteristics like Daoism, where Dao and Force denote principles of reality rather than a deity. In this way, atheistic Jediism (of which I include myself) can include a spiritual attitude similar to these religions. Dao, Force or kami express a spiritual understanding of this monistic principle symbolizing the sacred nature of reality. For me, Jediism is a form of spiritual atheism.

Gisteron wrote: Since pantheism is in a multitude of respects indistinguishable from atheism, it is not a stretch to imagine a Jedi being an atheist also.

Yeah, except that Jediism (at least in canon) is panentheism, not proper pantheism, because it maintains that the Force is separate from the universe itself (i.e., the Force exists in the Universe but isn't the universe), and the Force is a singular, eternal, animating force in the universe.

Burn_Phoenix wrote: I think the main problem with defining jediism as a religion is the aspect of worship. We have nearly every other definition of a religion (agreed practices is not necessary really). In my experience we don't worship the Force, we acknowledge it's existence and that it is part of everything, including ourselves (hence the introspection because to know ourselves will help us to 'know' the Force).

This has always been my definition of religion--I consider something a proper religion if it has a cosmology and worship practices. It's not a dictionary definition, or an official stance, but it's my subjective connotative understanding of religion. Which is why I've always considered my personal expressions of things like Jediism and most Eastern religions as philosophical additives to religion, and not religions on their own.

As a principle regarding the nature of the universe, I agree that the principle is not identical with the universe. Similarly, wouldn't the principle of universe then not be identical with the universe itself. But it seems a troublesome distinction that the Force is of but not in. This reminds me of the Aristotelian distinction regarding the relationship of soul, as the principle of life, to the body which is alive. Perhaps, we might think of the Force as a principle analogous to the principle of life. It is the principle of the Force that makes the universe (or reality in general) this kind of universe. The Force is the realization of a universe of this kind.

Gisteron wrote: Since pantheism is in a multitude of respects indistinguishable from atheism, it is not a stretch to imagine a Jedi being an atheist also.

As you no doubt understand, there are a few distinct forms of pantheism, at least two of which are distinguishable from atheism (dualist & monist idealist pantheism). It's true that the most popular pantheist movement at the moment is naturalistic (monist physicalist), and I recognize that you were making a generalization to express an idea (which makes sense and I agree), so I'm not arguing with you. I simply wanted to clarify this additional point for those who aren't as familiar with pantheism.

steamboat28 wrote: Yeah, except that Jediism (at least in canon) is panentheism, not proper pantheism, because it maintains that the Force is separate from the universe itself (i.e., the Force exists in the Universe but isn't the universe), and the Force is a singular, eternal, animating force in the universe.

I see what you're saying, but I'm definitely not panentheist. There are always going to be exceptions, I suppose.