The value of Faith

tzb wrote: Perhaps some enjoy knowing, and others enjoy the unknown?

Ignorance is bliss vs knowledge is power... some prioritise bliss, some power.

Which is interesting, given the Jedi code.

Still, I wouldnt compare bliss and power, and if your only goal is to feel good, you could easily pick up a drug habit. Lots of ignorance and bliss chasing there. but of course your knowledge would intervene.

Certainly, you need only look at the effects of meth to come to the conclusion that its not a good idea.

I prioritize knowledge for many reasons, one is simply being a father.

Power, well, certainly there is a level of power attributed to knowledge, still, its a bit simplistic to put that as the highest priority for it.

In regards to an online church and teaching/learning community, where ideas such as the ones that are discussed here are present, I think it shows a fair amount of responsibility and accountability, as well as maturity to place the known over the unknown.

As it is a given we at present dont know way more than we do, even the most educated people on the planet know this, but its a cop out of the highest order to simply be ok with ignorance and chase bliss in such a community one would think.

Still, it is ultimately up to you or others to place bliss as your top priority, just as long as people know that happiness is a direct result of ignorance, and that that resulting opinions will reflect that philosophy.

But then, why would anyone listen? How, or why would anyone seek council or training? Ignorance requires none at all.

I would also say its a poor attempt to make a case for the value of faith by trying to make a case for the value of ignorance, as hopefully people do not believe they are the same thing, or equatable in any way.

To say one enjoys the unknown puts no value on faith either.

The real problem is people assert faith and information as if they know around it, but at the same time say they do not know. The problem this creates is one speaking with authority they themselves know they do not have.

The one value I have seen from faith is that it gives peace of mind and comfort to existential angst, and existential crisis.

I dont begrudge anyone that, I would just prefer honesty about it.

Still, I suppose that honesty would defeat the point...

"Faith is inherently irrational, and while I respect the freedom of every individual to decide for themselves whether or not to have anay particular faith, I think it's important to point out the inherent intellectual risks in believing anything wihtout evidence or logic." - Dr. Steven Novella

This quote disturbs me because I don't what to say but I feel I should defend faith. I then asked myself "why"? Why defend faith? What value does it bring?

Without having read any of the other posts…

I would first say that I believe that the Dr. is talking about Faith in the terms of religions. (i.e. the Catholic Faith, the Jewish Faith, the Muslim Faith). In this context, I believe people have to have something to believe in as a matter of making sense of their existence. It is a big universe with so many strange and wondrous happenings. The feeling of being alone in such a vastness scares people. Having a common connection with others in a belief system, helps bring a sense of peace of mind to that group of people.

There are intellectual risks if that Faith does not use some evidence from within the scientific world to base their belief system on. As with the Catholics, Galileo, Copernicus, and Newton were right, but that doesn’t mean that a religion cannot take those truths and meld those into their faith.

An example – There is a theory that everything is a smaller or larger version of the whole. The human body is a Universe by which it is made up of cells that act as solar systems and universes do. The collective of the human race is like a cell that is multiplying. The collection of universes is the material by which makes an organ of a body. I know I am not explaining it very well, but I hope you get the gist.

By using this theory, I could say that we are all part of the body of Christ, that God resides in us all, or that the collective of the energy of all living things is the Force. I am using a scientific theory to base my Faith.

As for your question of defending Faith…

Jedi Believe…

1. In the inherent worth of every person. People are worthy of respect, support, and caring simply because they are human.
2. In working towards a culture that is relatively free of discrimination on the basis of gender, race, sexual orientation, national origin, degree of ability, age, etc.
3. In the sanctity of the human person. We oppose the use of torture and cruel or unusual punishment including the death penalty.
4. In the importance of democracy within religious, political and other structures.
5. In the separation of church and state; and the freedoms of speech, association, and expression.
6. That the systems of truth in the field of morals, ethics, and religious belief that we have studied are not absolute: they vary by culture, by religion, and over time.
7. In the generally positive influence that most religions have had on their followers and on society.
8. In the importance of individual believers determining evil influences and policies within their chosen faith group, and advocate for their correction.
9. In the importance of education. We believe that people are not truly educated unless they have studied at least the world's major religions and ethical systems. They need to learn of the good and bad impacts they have had on society.

Returning to the original point: ...(......).....intellectual risks in
believing anything wihtout evidence or logic." - Dr. Steven Novella

arriving the concept to a field simple example
in which our mother or someone who protects us says:
ok,go... but wear a coat

the idea ( "intellectual risks" ) have a implication of risk, (but the risk
is maybe in other postures also.)

... we can go preparated... we can discuss about logic also

I remember a cartoon serie :
Around the World in Eighty Days - Their main character start adventures ...
searching tools that can to help in the journey ...to wait for the unexpected

...Risk is no bad always /risk is in many places and many positions/
I am familiar with the term

be careful of risks is a common council, and the thing is not bad ...

This is only a prevention to possible misuse of some thing

Gisteron wrote:

Rickie The Grey wrote: I find many of your statements fracturized. I get the impression you can't posting a simple statement or answer and you use several extraneous statements to avoide a straight forward simple response. You may think your smart ass statements clever and may get some sense of satisfaction from them but you may be the only that thinks so.

Well, I try to express myself in multiple ways, numerous enough to point the reader along my thinking lines, but few enough to express myself precisely and quickly. If you are having trouble understanding some of what I say, I'll gladly help but you'd have to say what it is you aren't getting... That is unless you don't really care to understand and are mentioning that you don't just so I know, in which case I'd ask you to kindly not do that.

I think most, not all, people deserve politness.

You're right, my phrasing was a little messy here. There is a minimum level of respect people generally can expect, and some arguably do or don't deserve more. When I say to "just believe" things is stupid, I don't mean that the person who does that is a stupid person, I mean that the person is being stupid doing that. I may respect the person (though I often won't, but then I still ought to show some respect, if I can), but I don't think actions or beliefs deserve respect just for being what they are.

It appears you are ignorant of the affect your words have or don't care or are just goofing around on the internet?

No, that's not what that means. Again, I mean what I say. I'm not sorry if I was provoking. I also said it may be a good thing, if I was. In both cases, that was not my intent. I said what I said because that is what I thought and what I felt was an appropriate thing for me to say. If I didn't care about the effects of my words, I wouldn't be posting them. Of course with people being so very different I can't accurately predict every single reaction and effect, so in a sense I am partially ignorant of the effects of my words. And if hurting someone's feelings is the cost of honesty, then so be it. Unlike me, you actually did say that you don't care what others think. Well, I do. That's why I respond. And I have had regrets over some things I said. Not this time though, not yet anyway.
Also, if you feel like I'm just goofing around, nothing forces you to take me seriously. I appreciate that you do though.

She may very well and I'm and I'm OK with that.

Yes, I was just saying that this is not a mere opinion of her's. If you're okay with being silly, perhaps there isn't really much of a way how we can help you. Just keep in mind that no man is an island and eventually your "just-beliefs" will influence you and other people in a negative way. Chances are they already have. Again, you may be okay with that. We aren't.

I believe you could be a better respected member of this community if you tried to be nicer and put your games playing aside.

Believe it or not, I'm not a member of this community. I'm a guest. And I've earned my share of respect here while I was a member and since I am a guest, too. I also don't crave respect. If somebody chooses to not pay me any, that's their choice to make. At least on my account they'd get away with most of it. Of course I rarely accuse anyone of playing games. You are saying I'm being less than genuine here, but I shall take no offense with that and leave it to the judgement of the fair readers of our conversation whether or not I am playing games with you or anyone else. In the mean time, I'd like you to quote the passage of my post where you felt I was less than honest and the one that hurt your feelings, because I can't think of any such.

Good post, you shortened your word count and I appreciate that, a little in the grey area of tweeking/offensive but you are who you are. Thank You. Live well , be happy and prosper.

You had to register to post here so I think: that, your presence and your volume of posting qualifies you as member of this forum community.... and O I'm OK with that.

crystale wrote: Returning to the original point: ...(......).....intellectual risks in
believing anything wihtout evidence or logic." - Dr. Steven Novella

arriving the concept to a field simple example
in which our mother or someone who protects us says:
ok,go... but wear a coat

the idea ( "intellectual risks" ) have a implication of risk, (but the risk
is maybe in other postures also.)

... we can go preparated... we can discuss about logic also

I remember a cartoon serie :
Around the World in Eighty Days - Their main character start adventures ...
searching tools that can to help in the journey ...to wait for the unexpected

...Risk is no bad always /risk is in many places and many positions/
I am familiar with the term

be careful of risks is a common council, and the thing is not bad ...

This is only a prevention to possible misuse of some thing

Essentially your discussing the premise of "Trust in God, but tie your camel" ?

I simply tie my camel and go about my buisiness.

Actually.....I just lock my car.

What I'm getting out of all of this is "informed Faith" good. "blind faith" bad. Yes?

I don't sure if need to go to the point of god in this topic/

But,making focus in the quotation...


Implicances of his meaning (risk), and other diverse ways of see this point.


in general idea.

Very interesting point now,rugadd

simply, entering in "good or not good" ..."bad or not bad"...can to be a door to other complex universe