What is your take on religion

I would say that religion isn't necessarily a waste of time if the religion being followed has the premise of helping their fellow humans. To me, religion is a set of ideas in which a group of people follow with ritual and ceremony. When somebody, or even a group of people, has a certain routine in life that they do without fail, they could be said to do that routine "religiously". I wouldn't say that it "infringes" on progression unless the set of ideas that they follow preclude them from advancing and evolving themselves or the human species, in general.

It seems to me that you base your premise on the fact that religion divides and blinds people, which is a gross generalization. I understand that you know that not all religions do this. Also, people group themselves in these ways because not everybody has the same ideals or beliefs. Thus, the reason for so many religions and groups. There are groups, such as this one, that welcome an exchange of differing ideas to discuss and explore without (too much) judgment. It would be correct to assume that if we all had one way of thinking, as a species, that there would be no reason for anybody to group this way, but that's just not the case. I do see where you are going with this, though. Humans don't necessarily need religion because we have advanced far beyond the founders of the ancient religions of whom didn't have a good grasp on understanding our planet and universe. I can see that the only reason people hold onto these beliefs is because they hold tradition with high importance. It's more sentimental, when you look at it that way. They're so afraid of losing the tradition that they clutch it tightly and hate anybody who would try and take it away. That's just how I view it, anyway. I'll expound on it later if you want since I'm about to leave.

MTFBWY

-Luthien

If you are talking about "humanity" not needing religion because it doesn't advance us any further, and that the "mainstream traditional" venue of religion (like Christianity) only holds people back (basically the "outdated" beliefs), then I say... those who hold onto religions that don't bother with "advancement" are people who usually have no personal need to care for "advancement"... Those who Do, however, find their way beyond that religion and find that which does let them advance. There are many who ironically do need their experience with religion in the sense you speak of, in order to know the need for advancement at all...

Luthien wrote: I would say that religion isn't necessarily a waste of time if the religion being followed has the premise of helping their fellow humans. To me, religion is a set of ideas in which a group of people follow with ritual and ceremony. When somebody, or even a group of people, has a certain routine in life that they do without fail, they could be said to do that routine "religiously". I wouldn't say that it "infringes" on progression unless the set of ideas that they follow preclude them from advancing and evolving themselves or the human species, in general.

It seems to me that you base your premise on the fact that religion divides and blinds people, which is a gross generalization. I understand that you know that not all religions do this. Also, people group themselves in these ways because not everybody has the same ideals or beliefs. Thus, the reason for so many religions and groups. There are groups, such as this one, that welcome an exchange of differing ideas to discuss and explore without (too much) judgment. It would be correct to assume that if we all had one way of thinking, as a species, that there would be no reason for anybody to group this way, but that's just not the case. I do see where you are going with this, though. Humans don't necessarily need religion because we have advanced far beyond the founders of the ancient religions of whom didn't have a good grasp on understanding our planet and universe. I can see that the only reason people hold onto these beliefs is because they hold tradition with high importance. It's more sentimental, when you look at it that way. They're so afraid of losing the tradition that they clutch it tightly and hate anybody who would try and take it away. That's just how I view it, anyway. I'll expound on it later if you want since I'm about to leave.

MTFBWY

-Luthien

Thank you...

Proteus wrote: If you are talking about "humanity" not needing religion because it doesn't advance us any further, and that the "mainstream traditional" venue of religion (like Christianity) only holds people back (basically the "outdated" beliefs), then I say... those who hold onto religions that don't bother with "advancement" are people who usually have no personal need to care for "advancement"... Those who Do, however, find their way beyond that religion and find that which does let them advance. There are many who ironically do need their experience with religion in the sense you speak of, in order to know the need for advancement at all...

thank you...

Maybe we're just idiots.

I mean, people are people, and we can either screw up our life or boost ourselves into success.
Religion is not relevant, you have atheists and theists and all in between, and in all sides you'll find idiots.

Some people get stuck waiting for someone to save them.
Some people get stuck chasing after material things.
Some people get stuck in the unending philosophical questions and forget to live life.
Some people can switch religions (or to atheism) a hundred times, and they continue to be the same idiot all the while.

Everyone is wrong. And right. No matter what you believe there is always someone to tell you you are wrong.

I prefer to be the idiot who lives life according to my own rules. If I am wrong, at least the mistakes were my own to make.

Jiddu Krishnamurti (from "Freedom from the Known") :

"Now the very attention you give to a problem is the energy that solves that problem. When you give your complete attention - I mean with everything in you - there is no observer at all. There is only the state of attention which is total energy, and that total energy is the highest form of intelligence. Naturally that state of mind must be completely silent and that silence, that stillness, comes when there is total attention, not disciplined stillness. That total silence in which there is neither the observer nor the thing observed is the highest form of a religious mind. But what takes place in that state cannot be put into words because what is said in words is not the fact. To find out for yourself you have to go through it."

(the highlights in the text are my own ~ AO)

It is the misunderstanding of this, I feel, which gives religion in general such a questionable reputation. As with much of the rest of the way we live in our society - Western or Eastern - we have come to rely on religious leaders, politicians, celebrities, teachers &c &c to tell us the way it should be. We turn over responsibility to authorities to find the truth for us and make it an undeniable revelation. And then we organise ourselves around these 'revelations' to make for a closed system of those who accept (more or less) that ready-made 'truth' as set apart from those who do not or have not yet been presented it for acceptation or rejection. It then becomes a 'cause', providing some relief for that need for 'purpose' or 'belonging' that humans are prone to, but even this becomes source for conflict - externally, to be sure, but also internally - as one is faced with the double-bind of conforming voluntarily to that which is 'expected' of one in the respect of a prescribed conception of 'truth'.

It would be then, that religion could serve to free one from this perpetual state of conflict - that of "you/I should" do/be - in a supportive community of those whose orientation is toward self-exploration, self-discovery - not some insipid following of what some authority says is so ...

Tao Te Ching 18 :

When the great Tao is forgotten,
goodness and piety appear.
When the body's intelligence declines,
cleverness and knowledge step forth.
When there is no peace in the family,
filial piety begins.
When the country falls into chaos,
patriotism is born.

Tao Te Ching 19 :

Throw away holiness and wisdom,
and people will be a hundred times happier.
Throw away morality and justice,
and people will do the right thing.
Throw away industry and profit,
and there won't be any thieves. If these three aren't enough,
just stay at the centre of the circle
and let all things take their course.

Wow this thing has blown up since I went to bed haha. I see your take on religion and I would like to offer my own:

Will I say I am a religious person? No. But I will say I have faith. I don't believe there is anything wrong with religion, provided that religion does not prevent other people from living their lives. I say that to apply to the dark ones who sacrifice the unwilling, to the people or groups who try to prevent people from living their lives without harm to others based off of their own religion.

Christians are the hot topic of the last one. Honestly, it was those loudest Christians that were the final straw in me saying "Enough with this religion. I'm done with it." I was born into the New Apostolic church (Christian). I lived the first 20 years of my life believing in it. But something never seemed quite right to me. The biggest thing I remember was when I was young, being told that all other religions were wrong. Here, sometime between probably 6 and 10 years old, I didn't think that was right. How could there be so many other people who believe in a different religion, and it be wrong?

So I stepped away from it, and years later, felt I was missing something all this time, so I came here. Recently, I've been talking with Christians. The quiet ones. I've only had one that was worried for my soul (LOL) but he was sweet about it. But they all made me realize that this private 'war' I had in my own heart was a misjudgement by the few loud ones.

Let me share a quote that really rang true for me recently:

Spiritual practices are based on personal, direct experience and are replicable by others who choose to undergo the practices and initiations. Religion, on the other hand, is based on belief. My teacher, and old Indian man from the high Andes, once said to me as we were walking the edge of Lake Titicaca, the Sea on Top of the World: "Religions are simple concepts of spirituality: values, standards, truths, principles communicated in the form of a story that uses poetry and metaphor to illustrate its wisdom." These stories have been told and retold until even their embellishments acquire profound meaning and the figurative is taken literally and the lessons are lost. And my friends, the priests, were devoted caretakers of a story that was not their own.

But the shaman is the author of the story, the myth-maker. El Viejo's (my teacher's) faith was based on his own experience of the divine in Nature. A shaman stands with one foot in this world and one foot in the world of spirit. With the priests and in the schools, I learned the lessons of others. With El Viejo, I learned my own lessons.

Awakening to the Spirit World by Sandra Ingerman & Hank Wesselman. This particular quote written by Albert Villoldo

I personally find more joy in the SPIRITUAL path. But some people cannot find Spirit without Religion, and I find nothing wrong with that. My path is often lonely, quiet, and walked only with the Spirits of of the worlds. My husband is supportive but doesn't understand. My friends and coworkers range from "You're insane" to "....lets change the subject" to "That's fascinating! Tell me more!" Religion offers people a fellowship. A group of people who believe as you do. I can't tell you how many times I've had to stop the train of thought "This can't be real...". It is so much easier to have that affirmation from fellow believers. But the pitfall in some of the traditional religions is believers have a hard time of letting things change. So the stories need explanations to understand their meaning. And sometimes, the people are so focused on "This is word-for-word true! This happened!" that they miss the meaning of the story for trying to wrap their heads around the facts. It is often stagnant and doesn't offer too much in the way of self-exploration. (Here I'm talking the more structured-based religion, in particular my personal experience with Christianity.) However there are religions such as Buddhism that are all ABOUT self-exploration and enlightenment.

I believe that humanity is inherently selfish. But I also believe that there is good in everyone. Religion offers the support for people to find that good, who may not otherwise find it in themselves.

Has religion prevented the enhancement in Science? In the past, yes. Not so much now. There are many religious people who find themselves doing their personal God's work in science. And they find God in every star, in every microorganism, in every theory, in every chemical reaction. And I think that's a great thing. And it's no different than what I do. My 'God' just happens to have a different word. I see the Force flow from every leaf, from every star, from every breath of wind, from every sunrise, and every moon phase.

I believe there is nothing wrong with religion. It works for some people, it doesn't work for others. It's the person that decides what to do with the information they are given. It's up to them to behave in a 'right' or 'wrong' manner against their fellow humanity and the world. Religion itself isn't the culprit for the world's issues. It's the people. It's up to each individual person to follow their own path.

For me, no religion I ever encountered, especially the one I was raised on, ever worked for me until I found Jedism. Religion is not a waste of time if it works for you. But that does not mean that religion will work for everyone.

To the OP:

Before I start, I want to ask that, if I have misread anything you wrote, please call me out on it. Any misreadings or distortions are completely unintentional.

Unless I misunderstood, two of your main premises are that:

1. Religion is no longer needed.
2. Religion creates division.

I won't spend much time addressing your first point because I don't see religion as happening on a basis of need. Sure, you might say that religion fills a function by "giving people hope" or "being a crutch," but really, what is religion needed for? Personally, I think religion just "is." People like to claim that the purpose of religion was to answer questions that science has subsequently solved, like "what is lightning?" or "where does rain come from?," or even "how did we get here?," but obviously I don't see those as very good explanations, as religion still persists in light of these advances. Must everything have a purpose? This brings to my mind a quote from Oscar Wilde: "Art is useless."

For your second point, I agree and disagree. Yes, religion creates division, just like every other thing that makes one person strikingly distinguishable from the other- race, language, dialect, nationality, ethnicity, and so on. I honestly think that we can't fault religion for this. If we did, we'd have to argue for the abolition of sports to end football hooliganism, if we were being honest with ourselves.

I disagree with the oft-made assertion that religion causes wars. The conflict in East Timor was not a war of religion, but was born out of the rapid end of colonialism and the subsequent disorder. One conflict I experienced firsthand- the Troubles in Northern Ireland- is not a war of religion. The fact that the majority of Unionists are protestant and the majority of Republicans are Catholic does not make it a religious war. If anything, I'd call it a war of nationalism and unresolved historical prejudice and conflict, rather than religious or ethnic (since both sides are still Celtic).

Even the conflicts in the Middle East aren't wholly religious. Israel is an ethnic conflict, not a religious one. The vast majority of Zionist Jews are not devoutly religious, and many are atheists. For the Palestinians, they just see it as an invasion. 9/11 was not done because the US is so haram to us Muslims, it was done in response to the US meddling in everybody's business (I'm not defending the attack, by the way).

I'm sorry, but you cannot force everybody to be atheists and expect it to solve these problems. The US has pretended that race doesn't exist for about 50 years, and US society and descended into crime, disorder, and confusion. We've pretended that gender and sex don't exist, and now half of marriages end in divorce and families suffer.

Rather than railing against religion, address the real problems in the world.

Star Forge wrote: Rather than railing against religion, address the real problems in the world.

Excellent approach.