Fact Checking Daniel M. Jones and The Church of Jediism

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote: True jedi ism has no sacred text nor does it own anything.

Tell that to Daniel Jones. Is he wrong?

You just thrive on assumptions of intentions you have no confirmation of don't you?

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: In your case it should definitely be most important to do those in the name of jediism.

If that was the case I would run around on every 911 call saying Hello my name is Tom I'm with such and such ambulance and I'm a Jedi and I'm going to take care of you today. At the time I'm there, they could careless what religious belief I follow and if anything it causes more problems then it helps. It is NOT the most important thing to do things in the name of Jedi for me. If people ask great, but i'm not going to shove it down their throats, that's crazy disrespectful.

I carry the title where my title needs carried, or when someone asks it of me It doesn't change that my actions are based on the philosophy whether I carry a hello my name is tag on my shirt or not.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: You obviously care about your chosen philosophical worldview or you would not be upset in the slightest about what you see as Jones misrepresentation of it. Who cares if jediism is misrepresented as long as kindness alone is the goal, right?

You call yourself a Jedi and accepted the title of Knight from a community of like minded individuals. Your obviously proud of that and find value in it or you would not have accepted it. You want the word to spread and Jediism to grow and become respected as a valid path don't you? Then please, stop trying to convince me otherwise.

I did not take the title on pride, I took it purely so that I can pay forward the time and patience that was given to instruct me to those willing to learn from it. Otherwise I could careless about the title as it's not as important as to where I am as an individual on my path. I'm also not an evangelist, I'm not out to get in your face and tell you what you should believe in. Yes I want the overall view of Jedi to be good, yes I want to improve the image of it for the sake of all those out there who may feel lost and are looking for something that might work for them, not myself. I want it to be seen as a viable option, not out there to take over the world as some worldwide contender for religious belief unless there are that many people who feel it works for them.

If I'm trying to convince you of anything is that you don't seem to have me figured out at all. I honestly don't understand your vendetta here it's almost like your super eager to assume, super eager to act on too little information, super eager to thrive on the resulting conflict, but maybe I'm wrong I don't know. I've seen you claim your out to call everyone else out on their "BS" your not invulnerable from that either.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Brick, before star wars was a movie it was a screenplay – written text. And before it was a Screenplay it was a series of notes – also written from ideas

True, but the version of 'Star Wars' that ultimately inspired Jediism and leads so many people to this site, is the film franchise. Not the screenplay.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Tellahane, yes I understand what you are saying but still you are never going to be able to deny the fact that the box itself, the very fabric it’s made from, is Star Wars.

I'm not sure I 100% agree with that Kyrin. Obviously I don't for a second deny that we are heavily influenced/inspired by Star Wars, we're called Jedi and believe in the Force after all :laugh:. But I'd argue that most of our lessons and teachings are taken from the source material that inspired Star Wars, not Star Wars itself.

Surely that's why we have Campbell in the IP rather than a collection of quotes from Yoda? I'd say the box is more 'Campbell/Watts/Mono-myth' than 'Star Wars'. Though it stands to reason that we do of cause share many similar attributes with the Jedi in the movies.

But ultimately Star Wars is fiction/myth, and the very first thing it says on our home page is that Jediism, as it exists at this temple 'does not base its focus on myth and fiction but on the real life issues and philosophies that are at the source of myth.'

The source of the 'Star Wars Myth' was Campbell/Hero's Journey/Mono-myth.

Though I'm really getting off topic here. My initial point in this thread was that Daniel Morgan Jones shouldn't be saying 'this is what jediism is, and all jedi agree', when the wider community doesn't necessarily agree with what he is saying. Which this very conversation between us has proven as, despite both calling ourselves Jedi, we clearly have differing opinions on Jediism

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Tellahane, Im not sure why it is that you so strongly want to distance yourself from the name of your chosen philosophy?

I don't think Tellah was trying to distance himsel....wait, I don't know, so I shouldn't really speak for him :laugh:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: The modern day spiritual Jedi evolved out of Star Wars role play groups, and a major component of the philosophy includes discussing Star Wars, Quoting Star Wars and the inclusion of Jedi robes and light sabers as depicted in Star Wars.

Now, I don't deny that this is what Jediism evolved from, but I don't believe that it still is that. Specifically that last part that I have put in bold.

This seems to be the biggest difference between Jediism in the US and Jediism in the UK. I was discussing it with V at the last UK gathering. I'm not sure if its a cultural difference, or if its down to the fact that most US gatherings involve other Jedi groups, whereas the UK ones are (more or less) exclusive to TotJO members. But in the US, wearing the robe and having a lightsaber seem to be quite commonplace.

In the UK they are not. At our gathering last year, nobody wore a robe at any point, and the only lightsaber present was Loudzoo's bottle opener. Whilst not necessarily relevant to this particular topic, I think this is part of why we are disagreeing on certain points.

The 'Star Wars' element of Jeddism seem to be far more 'in-your-face' (for want of a better expression) with US Jedi than it is with UK Jedi. Which is probably why, as a Brit, I see a very clear, and quite distinct, difference between the two

I can vouch for the 100% absence of robes and glow sticks at the Dutch/Paris meet up too...

Kyrin, did you receive the book? Amazon is showing it's not been delivered so I resent the email.

Br. John wrote: Kyrin, did you receive the book? Amazon is showing it's not been delivered so I resent the email.

Yes I received it and I downloaded it this am. Thank you very much. I shall read it and provide a review.

Tellahane, do you call yourself a Jedi? Do you call yourself a Knight of Jediism? Do you belong to a Jedi temple? Then assumption confirmed.

I don’t believe I said anything about evangelism. I didn’t even say you had to open your mouth. I just said you do things in the name of Jediism – even if you only keep that as a thought in your mind.

Obviously the name speaks to you in some way as singularly significant. It signifies something to you. You can tell me all day long that you would be just as happy following “Mcdonaldism” and carrying the title of "hamburgular" but it would be a lie.

You see, a spirituality can be made out of anything and labeled any way we want, (I have created my own name for example). However what speaks to you are the concepts in Star Wars and the philosophies behind the name Jedi and The Force. I’m not sure why it is you’re so vehement to distance yourself from that here?

As for my “vendetta” well, strong word. I don’t recall ever saying anywhere that my mission is to call everyone out on their BS. This place thrives on too little information. Those with the power keep it to themselves to remain in power while they treat the membership like children. My only “mission” is to see that change.

Kyrin, I think you confuse seeking distance and unattachment. There is nothing wrong about some of our numbers not clinging to the star wars fiction. Our version of Jedi is very much different from the fiction. I hold tightly to the fiction as it was spiritual to me before I found this temple. Nobody will meet your or my standards exactly. Everyone is different. Grand sweeping statements will never work 100%.
As for the leadership. I've seen instances like you state, true. But these cases are far and few as a whole. To classify all of our leaders as you did does no good and will discourage their efforts. Be mindful of the specifics. Generalizing isn't the route to change. I encourage you to stay the path you have stated. But don't numb the system with statements that won't help your cause. Be precise and keen. May the Force be with you.

Star Wars is nearly another myth another story of every mans struggle with fate and with desisions. We like it , a lot . In a galaxy far far away ... the same things are happening there that is here. Good story telling good characters good stuff. We say Jedism due to the story's name. Some of us are fans some are much more. It's like a wise man said " we use the word like, to explain what we can not understand." The idea are simple and in my own opinion they all come down to one , we believe in the force and the inherent worth of all life . That pretty much means it puts us all at a equal mark. Some don't like that and that's ok too. Some stand on land and want to own it , dig it , develop it , some have difrent views , that's ok too. I look forward to the day we can act like humans and treat others like people and valid hearts not opposing views.
Some day ...

JLSpinner wrote: Kyrin, I think you confuse seeking distance and unattachment. There is nothing wrong about some of our numbers not clinging to the star wars fiction. Our version of Jedi is very much different from the fiction. I hold tightly to the fiction as it was spiritual to me before I found this temple. Nobody will meet your or my standards exactly. Everyone is different. Grand sweeping statements will never work 100%.
As for the leadership. I've seen instances like you state, true. But these cases are far and few as a whole. To classify all of our leaders as you did does no good and will discourage their efforts. Be mindful of the specifics. Generalizing isn't the route to change. I encourage you to stay the path you have stated. But don't numb the system with statements that won't help your cause. Be precise and keen. May the Force be with you.

Yes I understand what you are saying but once again, I am not saying the fiction is what is followed but the philosophy behind the fiction. To that point though, the name Jedi itself is fictional as well as the name "The Force" and that cant be denied. So no matter how hard you try to unattach yourself, those elements still permeate the spirituality. You yourself have a light saber in your avatar as well, another element based in fiction.

I have no problem with any of those things, but I'm also not sure how you can say that "our" version of Jediism is very much different. How can you speak for any one other than yourself in this regard? My version (if you can call it that) is worlds different than yours and Jones is different than any ones here I would think. This is my point, Take away the name Jedi and the philosophy as a movement falls apart. The term Jedi, a fictional term, is the only glue holding this movement together because there is no unifying material beyond that term. No creation story, no agreed upon text, no singly shared universal belief held among all practitioners and no originator of the movement. you cant strip the fiction from the Jedi spirituality without destroying the cohesion of the spirituality.

As for my comments on the leadership of this place, respectfully I would disagree with your statement. These instances are not far and wide, but run rampant. My latest example is the misunderstanding you and I just had. No communication caused distress in a thread. I have been blocked by clergy members and ignored by council members because they have grown tired of my questions. I find that unacceptable. Just a few examples but there are many more. Many council members left recently as well as a major chunk of the core membership over the same sort of communication failures. Doesnt seem like isolated incidents to me.

Perhaps you should reread my post. I stated that I personally hold the fiction dear to heart as part of my spirituality. That is not in debate. Others do not. How do we differ from the fiction? None of us are sanctioned by the government to hold the peace as Jedi. A small percentage practice any martial arts. We don't take children from their homes to indoctrinate them. Yes we share philosophies. We teach those philosophies from the source of inspiration and not from the fiction. I know your point. Yes no matter how much people wish to be unattached they can never achieve it truly because of our connection to the fiction. That being said nobody has to be your definition of Jedi. Nobody must do works for the name.
This interaction doesn't equate to abuse from leadership. This equates to a debate or discussion where individuals disagree with you. If that is abusive to you, i apologize. That was not my intent. I only seek to translate my view in a way you can understand.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Tellahane, do you call yourself a Jedi? Do you call yourself a Knight of Jediism? Do you belong to a Jedi temple? Then assumption confirmed.

I don’t believe I said anything about evangelism. I didn’t even say you had to open your mouth. I just said you do things in the name of Jediism – even if you only keep that as a thought in your mind.

Obviously the name speaks to you in some way as singularly significant. It signifies something to you. You can tell me all day long that you would be just as happy following “Mcdonaldism” and carrying the title of "hamburgular" but it would be a lie.

It's not a lie...but at this point I think you will refuse to even attempt to understand my perspective at this point because you are on a mission to try and convince me otherwise by continuing to tell me what my own perspective of my belief is from your two eyes. I don't know how else to try and explain it at this point, I don't think you care.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: You see, a spirituality can be made out of anything and labeled any way we want, (I have created my own name for example). However what speaks to you are the concepts in Star Wars and the philosophies behind the name Jedi and The Force. I’m not sure why it is you’re so vehement to distance yourself from that here?

Again, injecting words you are telling me what speaks to me and what doesn't and you aren't me?

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: As for my “vendetta” well, strong word. I don’t recall ever saying anywhere that my mission is to call everyone out on their BS. This place thrives on too little information. Those with the power keep it to themselves to remain in power while they treat the membership like children. My only “mission” is to see that change.

Then to change the status quo you have to be willing to LISTEN and seek out others perspectives and have the respect to acknowledge them even if you don't understand them. I feel like this is deja vu in me having to explain this.

"The Tao that can be described, is not the Tao" This is a quote I very firmly believe in. My spiritual connection with the "force" for example, the force is the word of the day/month/year/picktimeperiod here that I'm using to describe it for now, but what word I use to describe it, is not it and of itself, it is far beyond those words, it existed long before star wars and movies and everything else, and while the fictional connection might be the closest idea of what it is, it still isn't it, so yeah I'll use the name for now but that doesn't mean I think the fictional idea of the "force" is real, I think there is something out there that is real that for me in the best way we can describe it today has the closest match the fictional idea of the "force" and thats why we use that term so there is something we can use on common ground to try and describe it. But IT is still more important then the word we use to hold it in its proverbial container we try and use to describe it.

I'm not sure how I can explain that better, maybe with more attempts and practice, but this might be a situation where you an I can just agree that we disagree on that philosophical view and move on.

Everyone makes a valid point of view... As much as I have to say a Quote from the Star Wars movies, hits the Nail on the head....


Obi-Wan: "So what I told you was true, from a certain point of view." Luke: "A certain point of view?" Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."

No two people ever agree exactly!!!!!

And If I had to say what I feel or who is What I think truly developed and Founded the Concept of Jediism... The Man who started it all... George Lucas... IF it wasn't for him, it wouldn't be here.....

Neaj Pa Bol wrote: Everyone makes a valid point of view... As much as I have to say a Quote from the Star Wars movies, hits the Nail on the head....


Obi-Wan: "So what I told you was true, from a certain point of view." Luke: "A certain point of view?" Obi-Wan: "Luke, you're going to find that many of the truths we cling to depend greatly on our own point of view."

No two people ever agree exactly!!!!!

And If I had to say what I feel or who is What I think truly developed and Founded the Concept of Jediism... The Man who started it all... George Lucas... IF it wasn't for him, it wouldn't be here.....

True, but one might predict that in the absence of such a thing, we individually would have found something else that also best fits our needs, and without any prior knowledge of star wars would also probably be reasonably satisfied in whatever we found or chose to follow.

We would be trekkies lol

Very True...

JLSpinner wrote: Perhaps you should reread my post. I stated that I personally hold the fiction dear to heart as part of my spirituality. That is not in debate. Others do not.

I never said it was. The statement you made I was referring to was this:

spinner wrote: Our version of Jedi is very much different from the fiction.

JLSpinner wrote: How do we differ from the fiction? None of us are sanctioned by the government to hold the peace as Jedi. A small percentage practice any martial arts. We don't take children from their homes to indoctrinate them. Yes we share philosophies. We teach those philosophies from the source of inspiration and not from the fiction. I know your point. Yes no matter how much people wish to be unattached they can never achieve it truly because of our connection to the fiction. That being said nobody has to be your definition of Jedi. Nobody must do works for the name.

I never said anyone MUST do works in the name of Jedi and I never said anyone has to be my definition of Jedi. Your putting words in my mouth. In fact my point was that there is NO definition of Jedi without the title "Jedi". Take away the title and the philosophy is reduced to one of disorder whose tenets are defined in any of a multitude of other spiritualities. Your examples of differences show that. I don't mean to belabor the point because you have already admitted an irrevocable connection to the fiction but you cant define the differences without using the fiction itself. All this means is there is no coherent definition of what Jediism is without the fiction as a reference. I dont mean to imply its a bad thing, just the way it is.

JLSpinner wrote: This interaction doesn't equate to abuse from leadership. This equates to a debate or discussion where individuals disagree with you. If that is abusive to you, i apologize. That was not my intent. I only seek to translate my view in a way you can understand.

Once again, you put words in my mouth. I never said anything about abuse from leadership? I dont even know where the hell you got that!? Beyond that, yes I do agree this is simply a debate so how did you get the idea I considered this abuse? All I ever said was there was a lack of communication and I gave one example, as asked for by you, when we were speaking in the thread a few weeks ago about Streen. Still not abuse though, just lack of comms.

Tellahane, you yourself are the one who used the hamburger analogy.

Are you saying that the philosophies behind Star Wars, Jedi and The Force do not speak to you? If so then why in the very next paragraph do you quote the Tao, tell me you firmly believe in its quote and then say your chosen word for it is The Force. If I’m not mistaken the Tao is one of the philosophies that inspired the fictional term “The Force”, is it not?

If I’m not interpreting your perspective correctly then why not just call it by its more commonly known more widely accepted name of “The Tao”?

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Tellahane, you yourself are the one who used the hamburger analogy.

Are you saying that the philosophies behind Star Wars, Jedi and The Force do not speak to you? If so then why in the very next paragraph do you quote the Tao, tell me you firmly believe in its quote and then say your chosen word for it is The Force. If I’m not mistaken the Tao is one of the philosophies that inspired the fictional term “The Force”, is it not?

If I’m not interpreting your perspective correctly then why not just call it by its more commonly known more widely accepted name of “The Tao”?

I'm saying that it is the best collection of philosophies and idea's that best speaks with me, but the labels of themselves are not what speaks its what's behind them that does, it's the picture not the description. That make any sense?

Tellahane wrote: I'm saying that it is the best collection of philosophies and idea's that best speaks with me, but the labels of themselves are not what speaks its what's behind them that does, it's the picture not the description. That make any sense?

Yes it makes sense. I understand what you are saying. Unfortunately though, we are forced to label those pictures and the labels that have been chosen here are ones of fictional origin.

The Tao attempts to describe ones perception that some esoteric essence exists and binds the universe. The Tao is a placeholder for that essence. It does not adequately describe that essence because descriptions can never adequately convey ones innate perception of what that essence truly encompasses. But its the best we have.

However what happens when we take up new terminology that describes that essence from a fictional source, we put yet another layer between ourselves and that essence - a fictional layer that cant be removed. Spinner and I have been discussing that. People see that and recognize that layer and it degrades the experience for many of them. I think that is one of the reason that Jediism is looked on by many as less than a serious pursuit.

My question is, how does one get beyond that? My pondering of all this, is simply an exercise in wondering what would need to be done to bring Jediism to the mainstream and allow it to stand on its own without the need for the fiction? I think people like Daniel Jones, as misguided as he may be, may be onto something.

I wonder how you tell people your philosophic worldview without using any reference to the fiction whatsoever and can that description ever be generic enough to be agreed upon by any Jedi practicing today? I think if Jediism cant achieve that in some way, it will never be truly accepted as a legitimate philosophy and instead be relegated to the fringes forever.