Fact Checking Daniel M. Jones and The Church of Jediism

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Jedi do consider the material behind that source, if not the source itself, that inspired the Jedi worldview as sacred - thus a bible of sorts.

I think I'd need you to define what you mean by 'sacred' before I could say whether or not I agree with you on that, though I do see where you're coming from.

The closest thing that I can think of, that I personally would deem to be a 'sacred text', would be the doctrine. For me, it's the jedi equivalent of the 10 commandments

Kyrin Wyldstar , it's obvious you have not read the Charity Commission's decision (at least not the full decision) about TOTJO or read Become The Force , so I'm linking to the full decision here and I'm happy to send you a legal copy of Jones' book (Kindle Version gift) from Amazon if you'll PM me with the correct email.

Charity Commission UK Full Decision

https://www.gov.uk/government/uploads/system/uploads/attachment_data/file/578931/Temple_of_the_Jedi_Order_FINAL_DECISION.pdf

Tellahane, yes I understand what you are saying but still you are never going to be able to deny the fact that the box itself, the very fabric it’s made from, is Star Wars. You can take out or put in whatever you want. It’s not going to change the box. You yourself have argued emphatically that there are certain aspects to Jediism that cannot be altered or it becomes something else. That thing that can’t be altered is the fabric of the box. Can you take your philosophy and call it Christianity? No, because then it becomes something else – a different box with a different fabric that holds the things inside.


Brick, before star wars was a movie it was a screenplay – written text. And before it was a Screenplay it was a series of notes – also written from ideas on a new kind of worldview philosophy that Lucas wanted to bring to life.
As for my definition of sacred, I would define it as something revered, held in high regard, seen as significant in some way, or a source of new meaning or insight for an individual or group.


Br John, no I have not read either, just what you have posted here. But I haven’t really commented on my opinion of either. One thing I did say was I thought one of the reasons for denial was that there was no basis for valid real life source material for the religion. That was clearly discussed in the video you posted. Was there some other reason you thought I should read the texts?

What video are you talking about Kyrin? And I'd like to see your review of the book. You're not the only person I've sent one to. Since I believe you don't particularly have anything for or against Jones, I think you would give a reasonable unbiased opinion.

UK law is much different when it comes to charities. There were two particular main things that caused us to be denied. We accept members who do not hold 'this' as a religion but live it as a philosophy or way of life. For the UK's purposes either an organization is 100% religious or it's not. Since we allow secular members they say we are not 100% religious. 99.9% is not good enough. The other reason is that we primarily benefit our members but the general public not so much. Having a book or not does not have anything to do with it.

Before I forget again, what happened with Alan? I don't see him around anymore but I don't know why.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Tellahane, yes I understand what you are saying but still you are never going to be able to deny the fact that the box itself, the very fabric it’s made from, is Star Wars. You can take out or put in whatever you want. It’s not going to change the box. You yourself have argued emphatically that there are certain aspects to Jediism that cannot be altered or it becomes something else. That thing that can’t be altered is the fabric of the box. Can you take your philosophy and call it Christianity? No, because then it becomes something else – a different box with a different fabric that holds the things inside.

Ever hear the phrase that if you stick 1000 trained monkeys in front of 1000 type writers and have them type for 1000 years, statistically speaking one of them will accidentally write war and peace?

My point isn't so much I'm trying to deny whether the fabric is in itself star wars, the point is I don't care what the fabric is because whats inside the box is more important, I can dump it all out put it in a different box and call it tellahane's religion of fishbits, as long as all the principals are there and all the labels are changed it is a different fabric, and it contains all of the exact same stuff.

Yes I've argued that if you change too much its not jediism anymore, THIS IS TRUE, but it just means it becomes another label altogether. So the idea of the Force becomes something else, perhaps we call it the GRID from tron and we are all computer programs and so on. Yes it's not jediism anymore, but if it uses all the same underlying philosophies that I agree with it doesn't matter what its called does it because I can identify with it just as well as I can identify with Jediism. In fact if you put both boxes side by side and had people walk through and pick one or the other, I would care less about the results, who cares they cover the same things!

Br John, I will send you a PM shortly.


Tellahane, Im not sure why it is that you so strongly want to distance yourself from the name of your chosen philosophy? Some simple facts that you cant deny - the name Jedi and the Force came from the ideas in Star Wars, The concepts behind those ideas are rooted in real philosophical traditions and specific worldviews but combined in a unique way in Star Wars that is different than any other spirituality, The modern day spiritual Jedi evolved out of Star Wars role play groups, and a major component of the philosophy includes discussing Star Wars, Quoting Star Wars and the inclusion of Jedi robes and light sabers as depicted in Star Wars.

Now you personally may not own a light saber or quote movie quotes but that has no bearing on the fact that you claim association to a spiritual group in which a major part of its membership does those things. If you are so vehemently against such things or find them irrelevant why continue to associate with the group and call yourself Jedi? Are you ashamed of those titles or do you just like to practice open deception of what you believe? I found it funny that you said you like to "screw with evangelists" that come to your door. Not a very inclusive practice for a Jedi to be sure.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Br John, I will send you a PM shortly.


Tellahane, Im not sure why it is that you so strongly want to distance yourself from the name of your chosen philosophy? Some simple facts that you cant deny - the name Jedi and the Force came from the ideas in Star Wars, The concepts behind those ideas are rooted in real philosophical traditions and specific worldviews but combined in a unique way in Star Wars that is different than any other spirituality, The modern day spiritual Jedi evolved out of Star Wars role play groups, and a major component of the philosophy includes discussing Star Wars, Quoting Star Wars and the inclusion of Jedi robes and light sabers as depicted in Star Wars.

Now you personally may not own a light saber or quote movie quotes but that has no bearing on the fact that you claim association to a spiritual group in which a major part of its membership does those things. If you are so vehemently against such things or find them irrelevant why continue to associate with the group and call yourself Jedi? Are you ashamed of those titles or do you just like to practice open deception of what you believe? I found it funny that you said you like to "screw with evangelists" that come to your door. Not a very inclusive practice for a Jedi to be sure.

I'm not afraid of the title, and its not that I'm trying to distance myself its that I'm not holding attachment to it. If disney came in tomorrow and said you can't use force this and jedi that, and we changed the names to cheseburger and fries, It wouldn't cause me to flinch because I stick to the underlying philosophy, which is well beyond starwars, jedi and force are just the equivelant to word of the day calendars in the end.

I do actually own a lightsaber, 2 of them but that was pre me coming into this temple. As far as the evangelists, if you choose to invade my personal privacy, come up and into my home and try and tell me what to believe in, yeah I'm gonna have some fun. They usually enjoy it and shake my hand afterwords, it's not like I make them cry or anything I just twist their logic around on them to make them think until they give up trying to convert me.

Let me ask you this Kyrin:

Which of the following is MOST important:

1. That I perform an act of selfless kindness in the name of God.
2. That I preform an act of selfless kindness in the name of Jesus.
3. That I preform an act of selfless kindness in the name of Muhammed.
4. That I preform an act of selfless kindness in the name of Jedi(ism)
5. That I preform an act of selfless kindness.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Brick wrote: My issue with what he says is that he makes sweeping statements like 'We all regard Star Wars as a sacred text'. Do we? I certainly don't. But he tarnishes us all with the same, widely inaccurate, brush.

You dont find it a sacred text? Then why call yourself a Jedi? If you dont consider Star Wars as revelation to a life path, either divinely inspired or not, then why do you study its principles?

True jedi ism has no sacred text nor does it own anything . True Jedi ism encourages humans to turn to them selfs and their own faiths or faith without ... label. The label that removes labels so to speak. Therefore there can not be a true founder of a movement that encourages humans to turn to their own selfs. Jedi ism needs no founder and symcritism is the bread and butter as it encourages the learn at what ... YOU have and what is available to you , now. One of the Joys into opinion.

Tellahane wrote: Let me ask you this Kyrin:

Which of the following is MOST important:

1. That I perform an act of selfless kindness in the name of God.
2. That I preform an act of selfless kindness in the name of Jesus.
3. That I preform an act of selfless kindness in the name of Muhammed.
4. That I preform an act of selfless kindness in the name of Jedi(ism)
5. That I preform an act of selfless kindness.

A truly selfless act is one of the rarest things you will ever see. Throwing yourself on a grenade for comrads is a selfless act. Your talking about kind acts in service to community. In your case it should definitely be most important to do those in the name of jediism. You obviously care about your chosen philosophical worldview or you would not be upset in the slightest about what you see as Jones misrepresentation of it. Who cares if jediism is misrepresented as long as kindness alone is the goal, right?

You call yourself a Jedi and accepted the title of Knight from a community of like minded individuals. Your obviously proud of that and find value in it or you would not have accepted it. You want the word to spread and Jediism to grow and become respected as a valid path don't you? Then please, stop trying to convince me otherwise.

Carlos.Martinez3 wrote: True jedi ism has no sacred text nor does it own anything.

Tell that to Daniel Jones. Is he wrong?

You just thrive on assumptions of intentions you have no confirmation of don't you?

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: In your case it should definitely be most important to do those in the name of jediism.

If that was the case I would run around on every 911 call saying Hello my name is Tom I'm with such and such ambulance and I'm a Jedi and I'm going to take care of you today. At the time I'm there, they could careless what religious belief I follow and if anything it causes more problems then it helps. It is NOT the most important thing to do things in the name of Jedi for me. If people ask great, but i'm not going to shove it down their throats, that's crazy disrespectful.

I carry the title where my title needs carried, or when someone asks it of me It doesn't change that my actions are based on the philosophy whether I carry a hello my name is tag on my shirt or not.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: You obviously care about your chosen philosophical worldview or you would not be upset in the slightest about what you see as Jones misrepresentation of it. Who cares if jediism is misrepresented as long as kindness alone is the goal, right?

You call yourself a Jedi and accepted the title of Knight from a community of like minded individuals. Your obviously proud of that and find value in it or you would not have accepted it. You want the word to spread and Jediism to grow and become respected as a valid path don't you? Then please, stop trying to convince me otherwise.

I did not take the title on pride, I took it purely so that I can pay forward the time and patience that was given to instruct me to those willing to learn from it. Otherwise I could careless about the title as it's not as important as to where I am as an individual on my path. I'm also not an evangelist, I'm not out to get in your face and tell you what you should believe in. Yes I want the overall view of Jedi to be good, yes I want to improve the image of it for the sake of all those out there who may feel lost and are looking for something that might work for them, not myself. I want it to be seen as a viable option, not out there to take over the world as some worldwide contender for religious belief unless there are that many people who feel it works for them.

If I'm trying to convince you of anything is that you don't seem to have me figured out at all. I honestly don't understand your vendetta here it's almost like your super eager to assume, super eager to act on too little information, super eager to thrive on the resulting conflict, but maybe I'm wrong I don't know. I've seen you claim your out to call everyone else out on their "BS" your not invulnerable from that either.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Brick, before star wars was a movie it was a screenplay – written text. And before it was a Screenplay it was a series of notes – also written from ideas

True, but the version of 'Star Wars' that ultimately inspired Jediism and leads so many people to this site, is the film franchise. Not the screenplay.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Tellahane, yes I understand what you are saying but still you are never going to be able to deny the fact that the box itself, the very fabric it’s made from, is Star Wars.

I'm not sure I 100% agree with that Kyrin. Obviously I don't for a second deny that we are heavily influenced/inspired by Star Wars, we're called Jedi and believe in the Force after all :laugh:. But I'd argue that most of our lessons and teachings are taken from the source material that inspired Star Wars, not Star Wars itself.

Surely that's why we have Campbell in the IP rather than a collection of quotes from Yoda? I'd say the box is more 'Campbell/Watts/Mono-myth' than 'Star Wars'. Though it stands to reason that we do of cause share many similar attributes with the Jedi in the movies.

But ultimately Star Wars is fiction/myth, and the very first thing it says on our home page is that Jediism, as it exists at this temple 'does not base its focus on myth and fiction but on the real life issues and philosophies that are at the source of myth.'

The source of the 'Star Wars Myth' was Campbell/Hero's Journey/Mono-myth.

Though I'm really getting off topic here. My initial point in this thread was that Daniel Morgan Jones shouldn't be saying 'this is what jediism is, and all jedi agree', when the wider community doesn't necessarily agree with what he is saying. Which this very conversation between us has proven as, despite both calling ourselves Jedi, we clearly have differing opinions on Jediism

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: Tellahane, Im not sure why it is that you so strongly want to distance yourself from the name of your chosen philosophy?

I don't think Tellah was trying to distance himsel....wait, I don't know, so I shouldn't really speak for him :laugh:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote: The modern day spiritual Jedi evolved out of Star Wars role play groups, and a major component of the philosophy includes discussing Star Wars, Quoting Star Wars and the inclusion of Jedi robes and light sabers as depicted in Star Wars.

Now, I don't deny that this is what Jediism evolved from, but I don't believe that it still is that. Specifically that last part that I have put in bold.

This seems to be the biggest difference between Jediism in the US and Jediism in the UK. I was discussing it with V at the last UK gathering. I'm not sure if its a cultural difference, or if its down to the fact that most US gatherings involve other Jedi groups, whereas the UK ones are (more or less) exclusive to TotJO members. But in the US, wearing the robe and having a lightsaber seem to be quite commonplace.

In the UK they are not. At our gathering last year, nobody wore a robe at any point, and the only lightsaber present was Loudzoo's bottle opener. Whilst not necessarily relevant to this particular topic, I think this is part of why we are disagreeing on certain points.

The 'Star Wars' element of Jeddism seem to be far more 'in-your-face' (for want of a better expression) with US Jedi than it is with UK Jedi. Which is probably why, as a Brit, I see a very clear, and quite distinct, difference between the two

I can vouch for the 100% absence of robes and glow sticks at the Dutch/Paris meet up too...

Kyrin, did you receive the book? Amazon is showing it's not been delivered so I resent the email.

Br. John wrote: Kyrin, did you receive the book? Amazon is showing it's not been delivered so I resent the email.

Yes I received it and I downloaded it this am. Thank you very much. I shall read it and provide a review.

Tellahane, do you call yourself a Jedi? Do you call yourself a Knight of Jediism? Do you belong to a Jedi temple? Then assumption confirmed.

I don’t believe I said anything about evangelism. I didn’t even say you had to open your mouth. I just said you do things in the name of Jediism – even if you only keep that as a thought in your mind.

Obviously the name speaks to you in some way as singularly significant. It signifies something to you. You can tell me all day long that you would be just as happy following “Mcdonaldism” and carrying the title of "hamburgular" but it would be a lie.

You see, a spirituality can be made out of anything and labeled any way we want, (I have created my own name for example). However what speaks to you are the concepts in Star Wars and the philosophies behind the name Jedi and The Force. I’m not sure why it is you’re so vehement to distance yourself from that here?

As for my “vendetta” well, strong word. I don’t recall ever saying anywhere that my mission is to call everyone out on their BS. This place thrives on too little information. Those with the power keep it to themselves to remain in power while they treat the membership like children. My only “mission” is to see that change.

Kyrin, I think you confuse seeking distance and unattachment. There is nothing wrong about some of our numbers not clinging to the star wars fiction. Our version of Jedi is very much different from the fiction. I hold tightly to the fiction as it was spiritual to me before I found this temple. Nobody will meet your or my standards exactly. Everyone is different. Grand sweeping statements will never work 100%.
As for the leadership. I've seen instances like you state, true. But these cases are far and few as a whole. To classify all of our leaders as you did does no good and will discourage their efforts. Be mindful of the specifics. Generalizing isn't the route to change. I encourage you to stay the path you have stated. But don't numb the system with statements that won't help your cause. Be precise and keen. May the Force be with you.

Star Wars is nearly another myth another story of every mans struggle with fate and with desisions. We like it , a lot . In a galaxy far far away ... the same things are happening there that is here. Good story telling good characters good stuff. We say Jedism due to the story's name. Some of us are fans some are much more. It's like a wise man said " we use the word like, to explain what we can not understand." The idea are simple and in my own opinion they all come down to one , we believe in the force and the inherent worth of all life . That pretty much means it puts us all at a equal mark. Some don't like that and that's ok too. Some stand on land and want to own it , dig it , develop it , some have difrent views , that's ok too. I look forward to the day we can act like humans and treat others like people and valid hearts not opposing views.
Some day ...