Light Side, or Dark? That is The Question

  • Kelrax Lorcken
  • Kelrax Lorcken's Avatar Topic Author
  • Guest
10 Jun 2019 05:24 - 10 Jun 2019 05:26 #339494 by Kelrax Lorcken
Light Side, or Dark? That is The Question was created by Kelrax Lorcken
It's the official stance of the Temple that there are no "sides" to The Force, that it is a singular, yet gestalt, all encompassing thing, for lack of a better understanding.

I'm not here to dispute this.

What I do want to discuss, however, is action, and a well known notion in "New Age" and pagan circles: Intent.

Among modern practitioners of Magick, rather than espousing hard taboos about what magick is permitted within a given group to perform, such as forbidding the practice of "Black Magick", there is an emphasis on personal honesty and responsibility. To not only be honest with yourself as to what you do, but why.

We, as humans, are very good at deceiving ourselves- I'm not talking about things like performing a deed to achieve a goal for someone else, but secretly for our own satisfaction (that tired cynical notion of there being no truly selfless act). No, I'm talking about ideas like "Please, give me a spell to help this girl see that her boyfriend is all wrong for her!" or "I need to bind someone from hurting themselves, I can't do nothing anymore"- seemingly noble actions, but with just beneath the surface, ulterior, often self-serving, motives. The hypothetical White Knight is just as likely a "Nice Guy", and he most certainly has someone in mind as to who is "right" for the girl. The "Angel of Mercy"? Could simply be someone looking to assert control, even power, over someone close to them- maybe even over nothing, but simply something of which they do not approve.

No, there certainly is but ONE Force, with no sides.

And yet, there is positive and negative action, in addition to positive and negative results, and perspective. The distinction is not simply what we do, but the honest why we do, and what we can expect of the results.

Especially for those of us who would view The Force in similar ways as Magick- making the mistake of viewing it as a tool or resource, to be manipulated; as a means to our own ends.

And, as the old adage goes, "The road to Hell is paved with 'good' intentions."

Light and Dark, Positive and Negative, are very difficult to see, especially in our own actions but with honest, sincere intent, we can at least try.

shall we discuss?

(I'm not looking to debate, or convince anyone, but, pragmatically speaking my ideas are worthless to me, never mind anyone else, if I just sit around agreeing with myself, keeping them to myself.)
Last edit: 10 Jun 2019 05:26 by Kelrax Lorcken.

Please Log in to join the conversation.

10 Jun 2019 06:03 #339497 by Adder
I tend to define intention as spirit in action. The first hurdles are getting in touch with a spirit that aligns with ones path (spirit in concept) ie clarity of conceptualization. My Jedi path makes those things a circle, that generates refined view, enabling more coherant result as light. Then its about applying appropriate techniques (arts) depending on circumstance, ie referential integrity in action (casting). Dark then is either deep or lost - experimental or self destructive.

Knight ~ introverted extropian, mechatronic neurothealogizing, technogaian buddhist. Likes integration, visualization, elucidation and transformation.
Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med ~ Dis
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
The following user(s) said Thank You: Carlos.Martinez3, Kobos, Brick, Kelrax Lorcken, Jake Nislan

Please Log in to join the conversation.

10 Jun 2019 17:40 #339508 by Carlos.Martinez3
Thank you for the discussion. I hope it brings good yield. I will always try to give a bit of myself and things to build - tools ideas and hope! Smiley face.
On the topic :
As modern day Jeddist - one of the hardest for some and easiest “gates” to go through is the ever important... movie and real life gate. Real vs myth. This is a common gate to go through because we have the right as humans to decide if Zues or Luke - Bilbo or Spock - Harry or Catniss - Batman or Maui - Jesus or The Buddha - all these stories and different beliefs and ways and ideas - where do they sit in our own - way of doing and seeing things. How they fit - in us and relative to us. Self reflective is a tough gig my friend. The freedom to decide where to assign these ideas - how close how far is - to some - a new one. To others it may not but the point of that existing - is very real. Light and dark come on the same flow as right and wrong or good and bad and is not limited to just these type of ideas. There are so many ways to say the same thing.
Officially : our stance is easy - we believe in the inherit worth of all- including but not limited what you believe - how you practice and WHAT you choose. Self reflective - self review - finding things out on our own about our self’s is a hard gig. Even harder to teach as most time - lol we are just learning our selfs. So , as the old timers say- I said all that to say this-
My own review of myself and my own seeking and learning - I have coined for myself - there is no stray in my path. I’ll explain. I went through all the - what I labeled as good and bad light and dark - and I am here. Without labels - I see that path- as life happening - the ebb n flow - the wonderful thing that is my life. Some desisions ehh - probly could have done it different and saved some scrapes but for the most part - inapply the Force to the guidance and flow of my life to flow - wild like as I say. Now I have the opportunity to take a bigger charge and cultivate a bit more things rather than just react blindly as before. For me and my choice - light and dark don’t apply. I try hard not to use to many labels as possible - another of my own choices- but I have had huge benefits from doing that. Levels get in the way often for me and often time seem like walls more than helps. My own choice. So , any label can hinder harm or help- depending on how you yourself wield your saber! Smileyface .

Contact The Clergy
Pastor of Temple of the Jedi Order
This email address is being protected from spambots. You need JavaScript enabled to view it.
The Block
Build, not tear down.
Nosce te ipsum / Cerca trova
The following user(s) said Thank You: Garm, Kobos, Kelrax Lorcken, Jake Nislan

Please Log in to join the conversation.

09 Sep 2019 15:52 #343471 by ZealotX
There is one FORCE without sides... just like nature. What's good in nature we connect with life, growth, warmth, etc. But winter, death, prey, fear, etc. are equally part of nature. And that is the reality of the Force.


There are different paths.

When a tree grows it grows both above ground and below ground. The growth above ground is fed from light while the roots seeks out elements that exist within darkness and death. We feed plants fertilizer which is basically the result of previously consumed biomass. So the above ground path benefits from the same source of energy that benefits the below ground path the roots take. However, the expression of that one single power source is different. That one single power source created all of the basic elements on the periodic table. That power source created us as well as the energy we feed on to survive as we eat food that has died and in the early stages of decay, before the microorganisms take over.

But even though there are all these different forms that solar radiation takes we still call those photons it emits "light". And where there is no light you have shadow or darkness... 'death'.

Many people are so negatively impacted by the "absence of light" whether it is in the form/expression of love, happiness, joy, etc. that they identify themselves based on the pessimistic reality that other humans feed on their carcass and they in turn feed on the flesh of other humans (metaphorically speaking of course). We cannibalize each other's hopes and dreams in support of our own hopes and dreams like a predator that doesn't discriminate against any food; even his own kind.

Many people have simply grown underground and spend too much time outside the warmth of the sun. How much time do they spend looking up at the sky, the clouds, the animals, the trees, and all the beauty of nature? How much of that natural beauty do they notice within themselves and in others?

Above ground, the light of the sun is abundant and the tree rarely has to fight other trees for its rays. But the sun is also a traveler and isn't always shining on that tree. And below ground the roots seek out limited resources in competition with other plants and trees. Death creates resources in this realm. This is the realm of the dead; aka Hell, aka the grave, aka Hades, etc.

The energy that creates all these things is the same. But the path energy takes is different. Some organisms breathe in carbon and exhale oxygen while others breath in oxygen and exhale carbon. If either gets too far out of balance they both die. So it is under these unique conditions that life on this planet was born. And therefore some are children of the day and some are children of the night.

In physics there is conservation of energy where energy simply changes forms. Light can become dark and vice versa. That's why death can be a positive life affirming thing. The old pass on, but they leave knowledge and other resources behind. They don't keep taking up the oxygen or the food. They make room for new life. If a murderer is killed then lives may have been saved by that action. Therefore pacifism cannot always be the answer. People sometime focus too much on the image or surface of how something looks. I think in reality you have to judge by the results or outcome and who is it good for. The weed probably thinks the world wants more weeds. But what is the result of that growth? that life? Life and death don't automatically equate to good and evil. And so I think this is why the light gives birth to ideals like truth and justice.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Newwolf, TheDude, Kobos, Jake Nislan

Please Log in to join the conversation.

09 Sep 2019 16:39 - 09 Sep 2019 16:43 #343475 by Brick

Kelrax Lorcken wrote: ...We, as humans, are very good at deceiving ourselves...

I think this is perhaps the most important statement when talking about why we do the positive/negative actions that you speak of.

If we are so good at deceiving ourselves in terms of acknowledging our motivations, as you say, then this to me raises a number of queries:

1. What do you think is the best way for us to 'un-deceive' ourselves, so to speak?

2. How do we know that the 'why' we arrive at after doing that is the 'true why', rather another deception of the self?

3. If we see other people deceiving themselves, do we have a responsibility to try and show them that are doing this?

4. In attempting to show someone this are we potentially falling into our own self deception about wanting to help them see clearly in the first place?

This is an incredibly difficult task to accomplish, as we are effectively asking ourselves, and others, to look at our actions objectively from a perspective which is entirely subjective.

I think it requires an acute understanding of not only how we perceive the world around us, but also how we believe others perceive the same world, how that world may actually be in an objective sense (if indeed there is such a thing), and also the discrepancies between those three perceptions of reality.

It requires introspection, extrospection, and an ability to learn from retrospection

Apprentice to Maitre Chevalier Jedi Alexandre Orion

Moderator | Welcome Team | IP Team

IP Journal | IP Journal 2 | AP Journal | Open Journal

'The only contest any of us should be engaged in is with ourselves, to be better than yesterday'

- Knight Senan
Last edit: 09 Sep 2019 16:43 by Brick.
The following user(s) said Thank You: Newwolf, Proteus, Zenchi, OB1Shinobi, Kobos, Kelrax Lorcken, Jake Nislan

Please Log in to join the conversation.

09 Sep 2019 17:31 #343481 by TheDude
I found a wonderful article related to this through an Advaita Vedanta website, and I'll quote some of it here (with light edits in brackets) because it reflects my view:

"Vedanta agrees that evil, in the absolute sense, is unreal, but it reminds us that, from this standpoint, good is unreal also. The absolute Reality is beyond good and evil, pleasure and pain, success and disaster. Both good and evil are aspects of Maya. As long as Maya exists, they exist. Within Maya they are real enough.
" [...] [The Force] is not "good" in the sense that Christ was "good"- for Christ's goodness was within Maya; his life expressed the light of Reality reflected upon the relative world. The Reality itself is beyond all phenomena, even the noblest. It is beyond purity, beauty, happiness, glory, or success. It can be described as "good" only if we mean that absolute consciousness is absolute knowledge, and that absolute knowledge is absolute joy.
"[...] Looked at from a relative standpoint, this world of appearance is a bleak place, and as such it often drives us to despair. The seers, with their larger knowledge, tell us otherwise. Once we become conscious, even dimly, of the Atman, the Reality within us, the world takes on a very different aspect. It is no longer a court of justice, but a kind of gymnasium. Good and evil, pain and pleasure, still exist, but the seem more like the ropes and vaulting-horses and, parallel bars which can be used to make our bodies strong. Maya is no longer an endlessly revolving wheel of pain and pleasure, but a ladder which can be climbed to consciousness of the Reality. From this standpoint, fortune and misfortune are both "mercies"-that is to say, opportunities. Every experience offers us the chance of making a constructive reaction to it-a reaction which helps to break some chain of our bondage to Maya and bring us that much nearer to spiritual freedom.
"[...] Shankara therefore distinguishes between two kinds of Maya: avidya (evil or ignorance) and vidya(good). Avidya is that which causes us to move further away from the real Self, and veils our knowledge of the Truth. Vidya is that which enables us to come nearer to the real Self by removing the veil of ignorance. Both vidya and avidya are transcended when we pass beyond Maya into consciousness of the absolute Reality.
"[...] The words "sin" and "virtue" are somewhat alien to the spirit of Vedanta philosophy, because they necessarily foster a sense of possessiveness with regard to thought and action. If we say, "I am good," or "I am bad," we are only talking with the language of Maya. "I am [The Force]" is the only true statement any of us can make."
The following user(s) said Thank You: Garm, Newwolf, J. K. Barger, OB1Shinobi, Kobos, Jake Nislan

Please Log in to join the conversation.

  • Kraz
  • Kraz's Avatar
  • Guest
12 Jan 2020 20:23 #348339 by Kraz
I believe you will find much info and reflections about the topic in a thread in the "Jediism"-section going under the name "Balance". There will absolutely be some stuff you can get out of it there. :)

Please Log in to join the conversation.

  • Kraz
  • Kraz's Avatar
  • Guest
13 Jan 2020 16:27 #348366 by Kraz
Here is the link to the thread called "Balance":

Please Log in to join the conversation.

  • Omhu Cuspor
  • Omhu Cuspor's Avatar
  • Guest
13 Jan 2020 18:16 #348369 by Omhu Cuspor
Replied by Omhu Cuspor on topic Light Side, or Dark? That is The Question
All of the responses I see here so far are excellent. But I particularly like TheDude's as a foundation for further reflection.

From the standpoint of Ultimate Reality, no, there are no sides to the Force. But few people get a glimpse of that level of reality, and very, very few can sustain that glimpse to the point of being the daily reality we experience. We live out our lives, enlightened or not, in the world of Maya, the world of illusion. While even in that world it may be inaccurate to say that there are dark and light sides to the force, I do think it's fair to say there are dark and light sides to the way we live in the world, the way the Force flows through us.

Our values determine our intentions, and our intentions - influenced by our capabilities - determine our actions. The results of those actions can result in events of little impact, events causing suffering, or events that either diminish suffering or enhance joy. If the manner in which we engage with Maya has any meaning, then it seems to me that causing suffering is the result of dark-side values, intentions, and/or deeds; while enhancing the quality of life for ourselves or others is the outcome of light-side ones. We know this instinctively, even if not philosophically inclined. We react to suffering with sorrow, even when it is not our own. When happy outcomes emerge from behavior that is not destructive, we celebrate.

While there may be no light or dark side to the Force, it may be relevant that there are dark and light sides to us.

Please Log in to join the conversation.

  • ghosty
  • ghosty's Avatar
  • Guest
14 Jan 2020 03:49 #348386 by ghosty
Replied by ghosty on topic Light Side, or Dark? That is The Question
goodly gook.
there is right and there is wrong, with or without the force.
you can use, whatever metaphor you wish, and i support you, as best i am able.
i have been begging to ask this seems you are correct person, if a tree falls in the forest, and nobody is around to hear it, does it make a sound?
i still seek answer to this question.

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Moderators: RexZero