Developing tk/pk

Discussing whether these phenomena exist in the subjective 'imagination' only, or in 'objective reality' too, is interesting and has been a discussion for possibly thousands of years. The beliefs on whether they are real or not have generally followed the fashion of the day.

For those that do not believe you don't need to read the rest of this post! For those who do believe they are real, those much wiser than me have consistently given a stark warning. Given this thread has begun to evolve away from a discussion on the reality of these phenomena, on to individuals discussing development of such skills and 'training' it would seem appropriate to remind people of, or introduce, those warnings:

So-called super-natural powers (although IF they exist they can be nothing but natural) are a distraction at best and dangerous at worst. In the Cambridge Companion to Miracles Graham Tweltree states:

" . . . the yogin who has mastery of higher levels can control and manipulate the elements that comprise the lower levels and so is able to perform what appear to be miraculous feats. These powers, however, are discouraged as a distraction from the ultimate goal of liberation and there is a rhetoric of disparaging such worldly powers as distractions at best and as dangerous at worst - in creating stronger desires in the yogin. If the goal of liberation is detachment from the world of the senses and from human desires - the desire for power or sex - then cultivating such powers might take the yogin away from that goal."

More forcefully in the Yoga Sutra III: 38, Patanjali warns the sincere seeker of God-union that the use of phenomenal powers is an obstacle, tempting the yogi to egotistical pride and distracting him from the true Goal. The advancing devotee is careful to shun the use of any supernatural powers he might attain, or to employ them only when he is certain of divine permission. After becoming irrevocably established in samadhi, of course, the perfected yogi is guided by God's wisdom; he then exercises the siddhis or refrains from doing so entirely according to the inner promptings of the Divine Will.

To seek such powers is a waste of time (in all likelihood it won't work, if they exist they are a mere by-product of contemplative practice) and if through meditation and dedication such powers were to become available to you, you should shun them anyway.

If anyone feels personally affronted by this warning or feels victimized by others questioning your "powers" I would take a long hard look at yourself. Such a reaction would suggest that you are far from ready for such gifts . . . if they exist . . .

To quote The Wise Heart, by Jack Kornfield: "The real blessing appears when we can bring the experiences of the transcendental to illuminate the miracle of the ordinary. Seeing with the eyes of wisdom allows us to reawaken to the secret beauty all around us."

If your motive is to help or heal others, then there a million ways to do that now - that don't involve what will likely be a fruitless waste of time. If your purpose is pride, ambition, power or self-promotion then it will indeed be a waste of time - the powers will not manifest when it actually counts, and even if they do, they will only cause pain, to you and to others.

Please continue . . .

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=voVj8zVTWCA

forceuser wrote: To be clear I do believe in reality I have physically beat many highly trained martial artists I have been in the United States military jumped out of planes repelled graduated from the Sheriff's Department earned a contractor's license and real estate license to name a few
Yes I have been highly trained in reality
All I can tell you is this if all you believe in is what you can touch with your hands you have a longer way to becoming a Jedi

Believing in the abstract because of logic, deduction, and rationale is completely different that making claim that cannot be substantiated by anything other than anecdotes and woo. I am fully willing to accept that you believe what you say, I have no reason to doubt you, however, I have no reason to believe what you believe just because you believe it.

If you can present anything verifiable or falsifiable to support your claims that don't boil down to because "I said so", "trust me, I know." "A lot of people think/claim." or just anything objective, then there might be reason to believe. But to my knowledge not then that basic hurdle has cleared by supports of this pseudo-meta-woo-bs.

I'd love to be wrong here, I'd love to see proof of the paranormal or psychic, but that just hasn't happened yet and I can't allow my want to believe to come a faith in something that just isn't there.

I have been looking for proof of this my whole life, I do it every day. I sift through story after story and I know the people think they are true, but the validity of the story doesn't matter, it's just a story. Without something, some way, some method, or just any proof for these extraordinary claims...it doesn't happened. I mean I can understand that there are unexplained things and there things we don't know, but the jump from "I don't know" to paranormal, supernational, pk, mystics, etc. is a bridge too far. You say you think it is X, but that doesn't make so and when it is something that has never before been seen, you have to have more than faith.

I'm pondering the words of the wise and I think of all the religions of the world Christianity Judaism Eastern cultures and the Egyptians they all have stories about Small Miracles or large miracles
Is it possible?
That the thousands of books written buy the wise are either 100% lies or possibly we have been deceived
I don't know I am only a lost student carrying two empty cups

forceuser wrote: I'm pondering the words of the wise and I think of all the religions of the world Christianity Judaism Eastern cultures and the Egyptians they all have stories about Small Miracles or large miracles
Is it possible?
That the thousands of books written buy the wise are either 100% lies or possibly we have been deceived
I don't know I am only a lost student carrying two empty cups

It is possible, in that there is a non-zero chance, but it probable that all those books are true? More probable than say... that people thousands of years ago didn't have the ability to understand, measure, or quantify things that they saw and experienced so they decided Zeus was angry or Eototo was laughing and thatGod or whatever you choose to the source of these miracles just so happened to also take a nap or whatever at the same time we became able to understands the natural world and could possibly verify a bona fide miracle

Also, I specially asked (as have others) show me something that isn't stories. I can tell you a story about a galaxy far, far away. Equally as valid by itself.

forceuser wrote: I'm pondering the words of the wise and I think of all the religions of the world Christianity Judaism Eastern cultures and the Egyptians they all have stories about Small Miracles or large miracles
Is it possible?
That the thousands of books written buy the wise are either 100% lies or possibly we have been deceived
I don't know I am only a lost student carrying two empty cups

You are not a lost student anymore my friend. Fortunately you find yourself here at TOTJO, as good a place as any to learn how to see through this false dichotomy you have presented yourself with (Possible vs Lies/Deception).

If you work through the Joseph Campbell lectures in the Initiate Program Lesson 1, the answers are all there. I won't spoil it - by giving you the answer. I have no wish to deny you the satisfaction of discovering the solution for yourself. Suffice to say that your answer lies in the role and nature of 'myth'.

And don't worry about the cups - empty ones are more useful than full ones - but that's a different lesson

I printed out Joseph's book I didn't realize how many pages it was now I'm going to have to go plant another tree LOL

I made a similar mistake with Watts. I'd keep on printing it out and then get frustrated would put it away or throw it out or tear it up. I'd probably need to plan a small forest to make up for that lesson.

forceuser wrote: All I can tell you is this if all you believe in is what you can touch with your hands you have a longer way to becoming a Jedi

You can't touch electricty or gravity or radio waves - you know three out of four examples I named of things you wouldn't say we just "have to experience ourselves" because they are actually real unlike sorcery.
But after getting my introduction to skepticism and critical thought on literally the first two lessons of my Jedi training, I think I'll happily take my chances against your expertly opinion that it will be "a longer way" for it. I have come to a point where I no longer care about gaining rank or "becoming a Jedi" quickly or indeed "getting there" at all, which in your opinion seems to be really what being a Jedi is all about. I'll leave it to the judgement of your fellow Jedi whether this is a fair assessment.
I don't believe you should get to shrug off every lie you tell yourself and every superstition you come to hold because of that as just another part of your Jedi path and find it frankly something of an insult to your Jedi brethren...

Gisteron wrote:

forceuser wrote: All I can tell you is this if all you believe in is what you can touch with your hands you have a longer way to becoming a Jedi

You can't touch electricty or gravity or radio waves - you know three out of four examples I named of things you wouldn't say we just "have to experience ourselves" because they are actually real unlike sorcery.
But after getting my introduction to skepticism and critical thought on literally the first two lessons of my Jedi training, I think I'll happily take my chances against your expertly opinion that it will be "a longer way" for it. I have come to a point where I no longer care about gaining rank or "becoming a Jedi" quickly or indeed "getting there" at all, which in your opinion seems to be really what being a Jedi is all about.

Of course not, you're too busy with "socializing" in the forums to have time for the study that's required to become a Knight right

I'll leave it to the judgement of your fellow Jedi whether this is a fair assessment.

Really, lol seems like you've already made that "assessment" for everyone...

I don't believe you should get to shrug off every lie you tell yourself and every superstition you come to hold because of that as just another part of your Jedi path and find it frankly something of an insult to your Jedi brethren...

Well...if that's all it takes to insult you Gist, (or anyone else for that matter) than you're probably not cut out for this afterall...

My only experiences with both elements occurred during a psychotic episode, so although the experiences were incredibly real to me, perspective from those around me provided a very different version of events.

Sent from my E6782 using Tapatalk

Zenchi wrote: Of course not, you're too busy with "socializing" in the forums to have time for the study that's required to become a Knight right

According to my Master's testimony at the time, I was about half way there before I even began to "socialize", if you must know. In terms of the sheer amount of relevant content I have absorbed since, I'm pretty sure I would be qualified, too. Despite this I am going out of my way to not presume any authority on matters of Jediism and instead leave it to those who identify with the label more strongly and who are formally recognized to be more qualified than myself. When I say that I do not care about rank or progress on the path, I am referring to that formal path and I do mean that I do not care about it, not that I'd be too lazy or too dumb to walk it again.

I'll leave it to the judgement of your fellow Jedi whether this is a fair assessment.

Really, lol seems like you've already made that "assessment" for everyone...

Interesting. Could you maybe quote the passage that seems to you like I did any such thing, ever?

I don't believe you should get to shrug off every lie you tell yourself and every superstition you come to hold because of that as just another part of your Jedi path and find it frankly something of an insult to your Jedi brethren...

Well...if that's all it takes to insult you Gist, (or anyone else for that matter) than you're probably not cut out for this afterall...

I pick my wors with care. I intentionally elected to call it "something of an insult", leaving it open just how insulting I find it to be and "to your Jedi brethren" leaving it open whether that includes myself at all or to what extent, but making sure that it includes those who do identify more strongly with the label and perhaps might not take very kindly to being told that self-deception is part of their lifestyle or worldview.

I keep telling myself do not post any more things on this forum
Obviously I'm not that smart
It looks like this post needs to stop no one seems to be learning anymore
I only came to this forum because I thought it was the only place to share just a few of the many 100% true stories that have happened to me personally that many people have witnessed
I'm not on drugs I don't believe in fantasy land and I'm not very good at spelling either
You can call me a liar or a crazy person I'm okay with that
In the famous words of the Rodney King beatings in LA
Can't we just all get along
Thank you very much to those who have let me express myself and speak thank you again
And to those who wanted to argue the point here's a little story
A few boys all went for a swim in the lake 2 of the boys came out and said the water is really cold the boy who did not go in said that's not true I know it's warm you guys are crazy and delusional
Just a hint the water might be cold

forceuser wrote: And to those who wanted to argue the point here's a little story
A few boys all went for a swim in the lake 2 of the boys came out and said the water is really cold the boy who did not go in said that's not true I know it's warm you guys are crazy and delusional
Just a hint the water might be cold

Yes but cold is a subjective thing. How do you know the boy on the shore does not consider the water warm? How do you define cold? What is cold for one person many not be for another. In the end 'Cold" is not a part of science - Temperature is. You can argue that something is "cold" all day long but until you can prove the temperature is significantly below what is considered normal, or below normal human body temperature, however you want to define it, The phrase "its cold" is meaningless. Along those same lines, you claim to be able to throw baseballs with your mind. However that claim is meaningless until you can show some sort of empirical evidence that proves your claim to be true. Beyond that there is no reason to believe your claim because there has never been any definitive evidence anywhere that shows that claim is even possible.

You're right again the boy on the shore must be right the water is warm everyone knows that thank you again for clarifying that

I think they are just saying, that terms like cold are kind of subjective like the term beautiful. My wife thinks it's hot if it's above 70. I think it's cold if it drops below 80. So what is cold to me, is hot to her. So all the boys could be right, as Obi Wan says from a "certain point of view".

forceuser wrote: You're right again the boy on the shore must be right the water is warm everyone knows that thank you again for clarifying that

LOL now your just being obtuse. A statement about whether the water is cold or not is a subjective thing - meaning both the boy on the shore and the boys in the water can be right at the same time. Its a matter of perception, Just like the idea of whether or not you can through a baseball with your mind. You may have truly experienced a phenomena where you were able to through a baseball with your mind. However just because you have experienced that does not mean I have to accept your claim. Just like the boy on the shore does not have to accept the other boys claim that the water is cold. My stance is one that "the water is warm" so to speak.

Now if the boys in the water take a thermometer and measure the temperature of the water and prove that it can actually be defined as something that is "colder" than normal human body temperature, they can take that evidence to the boy on the shore and prove to him that the water is in fact cold using the scientific tool of a thermometer and predetermined parameters as to what cold is. I think that is all anyone is asking for here. A "measure of the temperature of the water", to put it in the terms of your story.

I, nor anyone else here, has ever said that PK or any other paranormal phenomena cant exist. We have only ever said there is no evidence for its existence and therefore we take the default stance of skepticism that it exists. Now I would absolutely LOVE for you to show me that I am wrong. You have made the claim that I am wrong. Because of that it is your place to show evidence of that claim. That's all anyone is asking for. If you have truly tapped into something beyond what we normally perceive as reality that would be the most amazing thing in the world. I think you would have droves of people that would be willing to have you teach them. However as a critical thinker I just don't see the need to go on any snipe hunts for magical invisible unicorns until such unicorns are shown to be real. Do you understand?

A statement about whether the water is cold or not is a subjective thing - meaning both the boy on the shore and the boys in the water can be right at the same time.

The equivalent is someone from Florida in winter telling someone from Alaska its cold out.

... I am only a lost student carrying two empty cups

are you carrying them with your mind?

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A few boys all went for a swim in the lake [strike]2[/strike] 1 of the boys came out and said [strike]the water is really cold[/strike] "i just made out with a beautiful mermaid" the boys who did not go in said that's not true you are crazy and delusional"
Just a hint [strike]the water might be cold[/strike] there might not be any such thing as mermaids

I think this is the wrong forum for most of you guys asking questions like wher the boys from different states was the cup empty how can you be sure it was empty what color was the cup how can you be sure what color it is maybe someone is color blind I think this is the wrong forum for you guys best of luck guys keep learning all you can