Profiles - Gender

Edan wrote: I'm disappointed my request for the topic to be taken elsewhere (this was just a thread about adding a gender option to the profile) has been ignored.

I'm sorry, Edan. That is my fault. I was attempting to explain to MartaLina why the "Gender" field, specifically, is important, and instead I canned that response for something less than what I was trying to say, and then allowed myself to be sucked into the larger debate that occurred here instead of on the thread I started for it. I apologize and I am sorry.
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OB1Shinobi wrote:

rugadd wrote: Discussions on the character of the participants is not helpful in a public forum and should be relegated to private messaging. Honestly, these debates are hard enough to follow for us, the simple minded. Poo flinging(whether they deserve a face full of chips or not) is distasteful, unneeded filler.

i actually disagree with this - observers get the benefit of watching the emotions play out through the responses of the participants

in general, the relative privacy of PM's allows people to hide - youd be surprised how different some people are when the conversation isnt public

This is actually one of the reasons I chose the hide tag instead of taking it to PM. I had nothing to say that I wasn't ready to say in front of the entire actual membership of the Temple. Guests might get ther wrong idea, but people who call this their home should know who they're sharing it with, even if that someone is a hotheaded, emotionally-defensive loudmouth like myself.

Very well. Let me expound. I personally have a hard time following discussions when they derail into character attacks(or really, anything that isn't directly related to the subject being debated). For my sake(and those with the same issue), if you are so inclined, please minimize such behavior.

I don't post as often as I used too because I have a hard time separating the wisdom from the noise and forming a worth while opinion. that may contribute.

steamboat28 wrote:

ren wrote: As I explained in the thread adding new options to the list is easy, but not replacing the field with a text box without screwing up years of profiles, which are known to be quirky. As there's a plethora of genders and only 3 possible answers for sex, it made perfect sense.

Some people want gender, some people don't. I never envisioned changing "gender:male/female" which only covers a small portion of human population to "sex: male/female/neither", which covers 100% of the human population for such a tiny nothing on a %&*&$$ profile page could trigger such bullying at totjo, which I now think has got to be the most bigoted place I have ever frequented.

You're missing the obvious solution of adding choices to the dropdown of "Gender", which you just proved you could easily do when you changed it to "Sex."

2 problems were identified:

1: By edan; That there is no other choice than nothing, male, and female. Finding it silly at first, I agreed to create one due to it being easy and in line with totjo's sated goals.
2: By MartaLina; That "gender" is not quite the right word. Martalina, myself, and another member have pointed out, on multiple occasions, that other cultures do not have this concept of "gender" like you guys do, and therefore are forced to comply with your culture by using "gender" instead of the universal "sex". Changing this also is in line with totjo's stated goals.


But then the gender mafia shouted, and loud. Refused to acknowledge the needs of other cultures. You bullied. For something written on a standard user profile on a website.

You didn't even try to live with it for a day.


I don't need to hear more to know what kind of people you guys are.

And may i also point out that the use of the word gender is an inaccurate presentation of what you really want to achieve namely , acknowledgement to be called whatever the heck you want to be called , so how do you want to be adressed ? Lets for instance say that you are a Drama Queen? That is fine is that Drama Queen a He or a She ? People keep thinking that a dropdown menu for the word Gender will cover it all , but it will not , an open space will where we can tell stuff about ourselfes , ow wait , dont we have an about ME section .. Hi i am Marta Lina , one day i am a Drama Queen , tomorrow i am Butch Sunday ...

And now for the piece de resistance for arguments sake , how many of you actually LOOK at someone elses profile , i did and guess what i found , the person i wanted to look at has...restricted acces , the irony loll

i look at the name and the gender suggested buy the avatar

if your name or the picture i see below it indicates a gender, then you are that gender as far as i am concerned

MartaLina wrote: how many of you actually LOOK at someone elses profile , i did and guess what i found , the person i wanted to look at has...restricted acces , the irony loll

Never once. If I want to address someone in such a way (Which is rare) I ask them, or I observe the conversation and watch how others address them or how they address themselves through conversation and interaction. *shrugs*

MartaLina wrote: And now for the piece de resistance for arguments sake , how many of you actually LOOK at someone elses profile , i did and guess what i found , the person i wanted to look at has...restricted acces , the irony loll

I do, whenever anyone pops into chat that I don't recognize, I check their profile for date joined and gender so I know if I how I can greet them and what pronoun to use.

MartaLina wrote: And may i also point out that the use of the word gender is an inaccurate presentation of what you really want to achieve namely , acknowledgement to be called whatever the heck you want to be called , so how do you want to be adressed ? Lets for instance say that you are a Drama Queen? That is fine is that Drama Queen a He or a She ? People keep thinking that a dropdown menu for the word Gender will cover it all , but it will not , an open space will where we can tell stuff about ourselfes , ow wait , dont we have an about ME section .. Hi i am Marta Lina , one day i am a Drama Queen , tomorrow i am Butch Sunday ...

And now for the piece de resistance for arguments sake , how many of you actually LOOK at someone elses profile , i did and guess what i found , the person i wanted to look at has...restricted acces , the irony loll

To be fair, sociologically speaking gender very typically dictates the way we address people. Because gender is a fluid concept and being recognized more and more as non-binary by academics, those pronouns are expanding and becoming far more numerous than any single drop down box should even try to handle. LMAO That said, I recognize that this is also going to vary a bit from culture to culture. Within my own family culture, I have individuals who are very pro binary gender definitions and feel any deviation from said binary status is a mental illness at best, and Satan's scheming at worst. I can only speak to what I know of sociology, anthropology, and psychology. It'd be nice if we had evolved as a society to the point where having a visual display of this sort of thing wasn't necessary; unfortunately we haven't because we're still actively fighting for non-binary gender rights and the terminology that comes with it. Providing it as a fill-in option alleviates the need for an individual to come up with all non-binary terminology without risk of offending those who are cisgendered and makes it more inclusive as a whole.

As for your profile question, I actively look at profiles all the time, particularly with new members. If someone comes into chat I've never spoken with before, rather than assume gender, I usually go to their profile first to see if they've got anything there. That's my first stop. Always. I also know other individuals who actively look at profiles all the time, looking for the same information or like information. One individual looks for information through introduction posts and the profiles to come up with information on how to address the individual, how to respect them, what they like, what they dislike... Things that can prevent miscommunications, unintentional offenses, and make for more interesting conversation and less idle chatter.

Trisskar wrote:

MartaLina wrote: how many of you actually LOOK at someone elses profile , i did and guess what i found , the person i wanted to look at has...restricted acces , the irony loll

Never once. If I want to address someone in such a way (Which is rare) I ask them, or I observe the conversation and watch how others address them or how they address themselves through conversation and interaction. *shrugs*

That is the point i have been trying to make , we all can attack someone for not agreeing , but we should stop attacking people who are trying to change things or clear them up , they be attacking eachother now , so stupid ...

Kit wrote:

MartaLina wrote: And now for the piece de resistance for arguments sake , how many of you actually LOOK at someone elses profile , i did and guess what i found , the person i wanted to look at has...restricted acces , the irony loll

I do, whenever anyone pops into chat that I don't recognize, I check their profile for date joined and gender so I know if I how I can greet them and what pronoun to use.

I do too, as I said on the first page.

MartaLina wrote: but we should stop attacking people who are trying to change things or clear them up , they be attacking eachother now , so stupid ...

Word.

Gwinn wrote:

Kit wrote:

MartaLina wrote: And now for the piece de resistance for arguments sake , how many of you actually LOOK at someone elses profile , i did and guess what i found , the person i wanted to look at has...restricted acces , the irony loll

I do, whenever anyone pops into chat that I don't recognize, I check their profile for date joined and gender so I know if I how I can greet them and what pronoun to use.

I do too, as I said on the first page.

:laugh: yeah i know WE do , but a lot of people dont , and even then , whats the use if you have your profile on private ?

MartaLina wrote:

Gwinn wrote:

Kit wrote:

MartaLina wrote: And now for the piece de resistance for arguments sake , how many of you actually LOOK at someone elses profile , i did and guess what i found , the person i wanted to look at has...restricted acces , the irony loll

I do, whenever anyone pops into chat that I don't recognize, I check their profile for date joined and gender so I know if I how I can greet them and what pronoun to use.

I do too, as I said on the first page.

:laugh: yeah i know WE do , but a lot of people dont , and even then , whats the use if you have your profile on private ?

haha that's on other people I try not to offend someone the first time I meet them if info is available but that's just me Private profiles are usually done for very good and very personal reasons

Kit wrote:

MartaLina wrote:

Gwinn wrote:

Kit wrote:

MartaLina wrote: And now for the piece de resistance for arguments sake , how many of you actually LOOK at someone elses profile , i did and guess what i found , the person i wanted to look at has...restricted acces , the irony loll

I do, whenever anyone pops into chat that I don't recognize, I check their profile for date joined and gender so I know if I how I can greet them and what pronoun to use.

I do too, as I said on the first page.

:laugh: yeah i know WE do , but a lot of people dont , and even then , whats the use if you have your profile on private ?

haha that's on other people I try not to offend someone the first time I meet them if info is available but that's just me Private profiles are usually done for very good and very personal reasons

I am sure they are it was just funny that the first profile that i looked at had restricted acces loll

well...technically the word "gender" basically means "the socially constructed elements of biological sex" or "how one socially identifies"

this doesnt actually sort out where biology ends and conditioning begins

the actual differences between men and women are not all socially constructed, (just check your pants) if they were, people wouldnt need hormone therapy to transition

i mean OBVIOUSLY there are differences between men and women

there are differences between male and female brains

we have major hormonal differences, and these differences result in major behavioral and psychological differences

women are underrepresented in the STEM fields. some people insist that this is purely patriarchal discrimination, but even in the most egalitarian nation in the world : "... there were clear gender preferences in terms of choice of studies; many women choose subjects that lead them to jobs in the care sector whereas men are more likely to choose subjects leading to lucrative jobs in sectors such as science, technology and engineering."

also, there is evidence that women are better managers than men

its easy to say "gender is socially constructed" and think that this solves the issue - but "gender" is socially constructed only because the very definition of the word excludes all of the fundamentally biological components and differences right off the bat

Avalonslight wrote: Akkarin, the other option which has been suggested (in the other thread I think) was the addition of the opposing category so that both are available and the user can utilize which they want. Given that profiles are quick snippets of information meant to be accessed easily so that people have a basic understanding of one another in communication, I would still say that if changing the form type of the current option is of too much difficulty, adding a second option entirely would be best because we have historical proof it can be done.

If we're adding boxes under "Basic Information", why not add race/ethnicity/sexuality?

There's space available for people to add whatever they wish, indeed those particular things they are inclined to add are themselves informative of what one considers important "Basic Information". As for what is not mentioned, there is something to be said about being blind to another's qualities - it highlights how unnecessary they are in interpersonal communications.

Akkarin wrote: If we're adding boxes under "Basic Information", why not add race/ethnicity/sexuality?

Please I beg you don't encourage them, by the end of the week we'll have a "tick if being called a jew offends you" box.

dont forget the otherkin

http://www.vice.com/read/from-dragons-to-foxes-the-otherkin-community-believes-you-can-be-whatever-you-want-to-be

---

EDIT

no internet reference is complete without a youtube lol

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=komph9TxTbI

Akkarin wrote: If we're adding boxes under "Basic Information", why not add race/ethnicity/sexuality?

There's space available for people to add whatever they wish, indeed those particular things they are inclined to add are themselves informative of what one considers important "Basic Information". As for what is not mentioned, there is something to be said about being blind to another's qualities - it highlights how unnecessary they are in interpersonal communications.

Response:

I understand gender is a big issue for some members here. I mean no disrespect by the comparison I'm about to make:

What if "race" is a big deal for me? Let's say my race has played a pivotal role in my identity. Should I get to demand this site to put it up there as an option to select on the profile?

I mean, there is an "about me" free-for-all textbox to write in any information is "must know" for others...

Your race doesn't dictate how people address you (he, she, etc) in normal conversation. Your gender does. This information being readily available on your profile can help prevent early miscommunication with other members.

Also, I stated elsewhere but will repeat again, the average individual isn't going to spend time reading a paragraph when they can see "sex: [x]" just to see if they mention a different gender identification in that section. It stating gender alleviates the possibility of any confusion that sex cannot alleviate due to them being two different constructs.

ren wrote: Please I beg you don't encourage them, by the end of the week we'll have a "tick if being called a jew offends you" box.

Oh Ren :laugh:

I see you're point, but you don't help yourself haha