Should jedi train in combat?

Manu wrote: .....no amount of physical combat will defend you against yourself.

Are you sure?

Trisskar wrote:

Manu wrote: .....no amount of physical combat will defend you against yourself.

Are you sure?

I don't see it Emrys. BUT I am no martial artist, so I might be at a disadvantage. Care to clarify?

Manu wrote:

Trisskar wrote:

Manu wrote: .....no amount of physical combat will defend you against yourself.

Are you sure?

I don't see it Emrys. BUT I am no martial artist, so I might be at a disadvantage. Care to clarify?

Martial Arts is actually used in the US for "Troubled Teens" and individuals with "Mental/Emotional Struggles" as a means of Self Discipline and "Adjustment" It gives an individual a physically tasking habbit to learn not only about martial arts, but about themselves. My husband (Mindas Ar'ran) used to get cops visit him at our local MMA dojo to help teach some of the teens in their charges. It CAN be a great method of "Defense against yourself" but you got to have a good teacher to guide you

Every Jedi has their own decisions to make. Should ..you... should I? Each individual Jedi has to make their own decisions. My own practice says I think most every one, regardless of belief and philosophy can benefit from a good positive routine practice of physical activity and mental active-ness as well. The idea is to keep new and fresh with as many parts of refreshing ideas as possible to me. I hope this helps with your own personal decisions.

Manu wrote:

Samjames340963 wrote: Is there any threats against the jedi order in which we must defend? Im new to being a jedi

The biggest threat to the Jedi Order is the idea that there is an "us" to defend and a "them" to fight. Our greatest opponent is our own mental maps, and no amount of physical combat will defend you against yourself.

Beautifully said, Manu.

I suggest seeking wisdom first in whatever you pursue, Sam. No weapon can prepare you if your mind isn't prepared, and you need no weapon if it is.

Snowy Aftermath wrote: I suggest seeking wisdom first in whatever you pursue, Sam. No weapon can prepare you if your mind isn't prepared, and you need no weapon if it is.

While there is some wisdom in this I would argue that it is a bit misleading. I can be the most patient, kind, intelligent, wise, sage like person in the world and still be attacked with a weapon, and no matter how much training I do a weapon will almost always be more useful when defending myself against an armed assailant than not having one.

Our animal self's seemed to be instinctively tuned to awareness of what is called a dominance hierarchy. We probably automatically and even subconsciously look around and assess our 'status' in relationship to others so to predict what safe options are available to us and therefore what might be unwise options. This 'status' in animal terms might be physical strength, sexual attractiveness and signs of life success, such as wealth, confidence and support (friends/allies). There is a lot of relevant information which can be found in this seemingly natural process, to predict and avoid or prevent escalation of conflict.

But I think getting dragged into 'combat' should be avoided as much as possible, unless you enjoy training in it or have a background in it, because then you might be able to position yourself in a unique way to reduce the threat to others. This though I don't think is a requirement, or should not be, for someone to define themselves as Jedi..... as many people cannot undertake that path for various reasons. I don't think we should expect proficiency in physical combat as a requirement for survival either, as a switched on mind should be able to give you an advantage in prediction and preparation to shape events in one way or another without resorting to the high risk intervention that is direct physical combat. There are a heap of variables in real combat which are outside martial arts training, as real fights often tend to be brutal, fast, messy and often fatal. All it takes is one mate you didn't notice smashing you in the back of the head with a pole and its all over red rover.

I'm not a martial artist, but if I had to develop a program it would probably be all about falls, locks, throws and blocks and develop strength in those areas for mobility and defensive capability, and then extend training outwards to use improvised weapons along those same lines.... and then spend the rest of my time learning the mind stuff
:evil:

Samjames340963 wrote: Should a jedi train in the use of saber fighting and sword fighting? Is there any threats against the jedi order in which we must defend? Im new to being a jedi

I think this question provides a wonderful opportunity to discuss the heart of how Temple of the Jedi Order views what it means to be ‘Jedi’. Though I openly and happily admit this is more my own interpretation of the Temple’s teachings – an Apprentice who has had ample chance to misinterpret exposure to excellent teachings and teachers. Please, do not hold the Temple of the Jedi Order responsible for my musings. I only ask that you consider them and hope you can find application and insight. To that end, I think that it is important to frame this question properly before attempting to answer it.

To my mind, there are three questions here all hinging on the qualifier of ‘As Jedi’. As individuals, the merits of combat, martial arts, and threat defense – all distinct yet interconnected categories – vary with each of us. Jedi participate in all three, but not on the qualifier of that title. Let me explain that a little. From the moment I embarked on this journey at the Temple, I found concrete answers difficult to come by – save that most things are open to interpretation by the individual. For some that equates to simple evasiveness on the part of the community - that there are no defined standards to which we hold members. This topic provides a periodic source of consternation between Force sub-communities – raises questions about specific requirements of physical fitness, meditation, study, service and many others. Consensus never came easily. On that, I defer to those with more history in the community than I to set the record straight if I am wrong in these generalities. Temple of the Jedi Order may have batted some of the ideas around as well, but concluded that an academic focus worked best within its given limitations. Whether through the Initiate Program or an individual relationship with a training master, the Temple merely provides a figurative mirror into which we can all look – with an aim to improve ourselves. That mirror is through academic rigor – a currency of knowledge and ideas that we can be more certain of in the medium of the internet. Keep in mind that there is no compelling authority here. Little standard beyond the academic. No expectation of prowess in any ability except perhaps to think independently. We DO cultivate certain cultural values, but the application of those values we try to judge with very open minds. For some that equates to an unacceptable, nebulous complacency and lack of accountability. I do not see the individuality of the Temple’s interpretation of ‘Jedi’ as a weakness - I believe that this it remains our singular strength. It advocates that we present the greatest possible version of ourselves to the world, and not what something or someone else would have us be. Those recognized as Knights may not meet my personal standards of physical fitness, specific morality, or academic focus. Or perhaps they far surpass them. All that is immaterial to them striving to find purpose in their lives, immaterial to them presenting that best version of themselves to the universe, and immaterial to their recognition as Jedi.

I submit that the ‘shoulds’ of a Jedi are few and simple - but not easy.

Within that context and qualifier, I don’t think combat, martial arts, and threat defense are among them.

for all intents and purposes, "Jedi" is a just cool way of saying "the quest to be the best, most well rounded, thoughtful, informed, and capable person that I can be"

so "jedi training" is - whatever it takes to accomplish that

what I suggest to everyone, whether they identify as a jedi or not, is to take a bit of time watching predators ambushing and eating prey (perusing the internet for footage is the easiest way, obviously)

all kinds of predators, and all kinds of prey

and realize as you watch that you are witnessing a fundamental component of reality, a basic and inescapable truth which applies to you and me every bit as much as to a gazelle or a rabbit or an owl

if you accept that you are a part of what your'e looking at in that moment, then you'll be in the right state of mind to decide honestly for yourself what measures you ought to take as a result of that understanding, and whatever you decide is fine

Should a Jedi train in Combat...?

The lion has size, speed, tooth and claw. The Viper speed and venomous fangs. Heck, the armadillo has full plate body-armour.

So, how is it the feeble, hairless ape claims to dominate the earth's life-forms?

Your brain....

Train your brain. If you determine combat is part of your brain-training, then so-be-it.

You're not Obi-wan nor A Skywalker.

Once you get past that, be the Jedi that's inside you, not someone else's Jedi....

Ah, another combat thread :silly:

As many other's have stated, having a developed and disciplined mind will often outweigh the need for or individual capability of martial arts / combat skills. Most conflicts in life cannot be solved through physical confrontation, and instead require careful mental thought and consideration. As many of us are also aware, there are severe civil and legal penalties attached to causing physical injury as a result of violent confrontation.

I have trained in many martial arts over the years which include kickboxing, tae kwon do, karate, wrestling, boxing, and akido - among others. When people ask me which one I think is the best to train in for the event of a street fight, I reply "none of them". Having been in many street fights, I will tell you that if you try to pull some fancy maneuver or attack, you are more than likely going to get hurt as these types of fights are hyper-paced and do not allow time to execute anything more than a simple jab or block.

And you better hope that your opponent doesn't have a knife in their pocket or a group of buddies that are going to come to his aid. Even skilled martial artists have difficulty defending against multiple opponents, and the good ones strongly advise against taking on such a challenge.

The more adept you become at training your mind in diplomacy, the less necessary physical conflict becomes. This isn't a blanket rule, and in some cases a confrontation simply can't be avoided - but these situations are very far and few between.

Very few conflicts start without provocation. The chances are you did something to insult/offend/threaten another individual, whether you believe it is founded or unfounded doesn't matter at this point. The best way to end a conflict before it gets to the point fighting is necessary, is to have a little humility, apologize for your part of the problem, listen to the other persons concerns, and keep yourself calm as to not further escalate the situation.

Our doctrine reinforces all of these points, and even encourages Jedi to be equally proficient in both mental and physical discipline so as to be mature and capable when (not if) they are called into a future conflict.

What i personally believe is that Jedi should be capable of defending someone and themselves, and in what way you want to do that is up to you. Personally i practice martial arts

When we speak about "defending Jediism" then i see it so that we should verbally clear up misconceptions and misunderstandings that may give an individual a incorrect view of Jediism. Or correct any incorrect information given about Jediism that may mislead people

Adder wrote: In my opinion, sword's are pretty useless as defensive weapons except against other swords, as they are not proportionate for self defense against anything less capable then a sword (unless used proportionately), and are simply ineffective against anything more capable then a sword.

What defensive maneuvers are swords useless in? Swords are extensions of arms, so a lot of manual defense also applies to swords such as parrying, blocking, trapping.

Trisskar wrote: I on the other hand feel that Martial Arts and Combat are.....Martial Combat. There is no such thing as "Learning Martial Arts outside of the physical aspect" as Coyote suggests.

That's a tough stance to defend, what reasons found the opinion? Martial arts and combat are merely practical applications of character virtues learnt through the science of the mechanics. So I'm curious to see how your opinion is going to be substantiated.

Trisskar wrote: Correct Agreed. I just feel it is necessary to remind folks to not forget. Combat is combat. It is not something you just play around with because you want something other than combat. May as well go do Yoga or Dance or Hiking or Biking....all of which can earn the same spiritual and diciplinary aspects.

It's like picking up a gun and taking it to the shooting range. No matter how sportsman you get. No matter the meditative and deciplinary aspects you gain (Taking apart a rifle, cleaning and putting it back together can be very meditative) It is still a gun and it can still kill you. Treat it like a gun.

Treat Martial arts like Martial arts. You are learning techniques on how to hurt people....no matter how pretty the wrappings can get around it And some of those wrappings can get veeeeeeerry Frilly haha!!

The essence of martial arts is to contain violence and aggression, which disproves the opinion of the purpose of hurting people. But at least try to reason your 2 cents to demonstrate its value.

While getting folks out and training for physical activities is something I very much encourage, saying that Jedi should train in combat is a different matter. If folks want to do that great! Martial Arts (in all forms, I practice Medieval Equestrianism where I use swords and lances on horseback) are great activities to get people focused on using their bodies and minds. Great stuff.

However I have NEVER needed to know how to use any of those skills in real life. At least not to this point.

I have needed to know how to jump a car, how to make sure people are safe after a severe snow storm, how to keep myself safe after a snow storm, how to prepare for bad weather conditions, how to drive in six feet of snow, how to use 4 wheel drive, when someone needs to be pulled out of a ditch, how to butcher a deer (or dispatch one in the case of an accident), how to build and keep a fire, changing fuses in your house/car....... I could go on.....basic skills that you can do so when something does happen people don't stand around looking clueless until someone gets there that does know.

I'm not discrediting martial arts at all, they are really great things to know. I'd just rather people look to basic skills that lot of folks really don't focus on because when the power/water/internet shuts down what are you going to do?

Not everything we learn as Jedi has to be translated to use in "Real Life"

Sometimes what we learn can simply just be "Great Stuff" and still hold great importance Martial Arts isn't just about the cool fighting moves. Its much much more than that....and that "More" is very important for Jedi to discover and learn.

IMO of course

J_Roz wrote: However I have NEVER needed to know how to use any of those skills in real life. At least not to this point.

This argument becomes invalid as soon as you do need it. How many people who did need it never had before? How many probably never did again? (either because the odds of needing it were low or because the worst happened as a result of not knowing it).

J_Roz wrote: basic skills that you can do so when something does happen people don't stand around looking clueless until someone gets there that does know.

This sentence literally makes just as much sense when applied to skills involving defending oneself or others. Just as the previous sentence I quoted can make equal sense when applied to the skills you have listed.

Many of the skills you listed are skills that I have never needed yet either. I will say though, that the skills you listed are useful ones to have (and I have quite a few of them). They are skills I recommend people have in addition to the ability to defend themselves. But as I have stated previously, that is all up to the individual if they want to learn it or not. I just think it's useful to have.

How many people have never needed a first aid kit but gotten one anyways? Like many things in life, we get them and/or learn them not because we need them right then and there; but, because when we do need them it will be too late to go looking for them.

I watched a movie a while back and near the beginning there were several lines that I think hold very true.

There are people that say that will never happen to me. Those are the sheep. There are people that prey on them and take advantage of them. Those are the wolves. Then there are those that have the ability to fight off the wolf and protect the sheep, those are the sheep dogs. I am summarizing from memory, but it made sense to me. And being a sheep isn’t bad. I think the world doesn’t have enough sheep. But unfortunately the world is full of wolves. And that is why we need the sheep dogs.

But there is not always going to be a sheep dog around when the wolves come to knock on your door. That is why I believe that every person should do at least something to prepare themselves for that eventuality. whether it be an armed robber or a crooked store manager no one should rely solely on others for their defense. Even if all they learn is a method to distract the wolf long enough for them to be able to run away that is a far better answer than hoping someone will come to the rescue.

Just my thoughts on it all.

On Sheep, Wolves, and Sheepdogs



There's more on the website if you're interested. Good read.

Entropist wrote:

Adder wrote: In my opinion, sword's are pretty useless as defensive weapons except against other swords, as they are not proportionate for self defense against anything less capable then a sword (unless used proportionately), and are simply ineffective against anything more capable then a sword.

What defensive maneuvers are swords useless in? Swords are extensions of arms, so a lot of manual defense also applies to swords such as parrying, blocking, trapping.

Mostly because your unable to carry them in public (AFAIK), but also obviously being useless against a projectile weapon or thrown object, or driven vehicle. Nothing will be an all inclusive defensive weapon either of course so that is not my point, but I guess it depends on the sword as well, some are heavy and their blade movement slower to accelerate which makes them vulnerable to someone getting inside its arc with a knife but can more easily held in defensive blocking etc, while lighter blades are faster but more easily blocked which makes them less useful in defence being lighter and designed more to cut then crush. I guess that is what the lightsaber was trying to represent, an ideal defensive weapon powerful enough to defeat any attack when wielded by the super fast reflexed Jedi, but discreet enough to wear as a fashion accessory.

There is the story about arguably the greatest swordsperson Miyamoto Musashi being beaten only once, and not by a sword. Musō Gonnosuke Katsuyoshi having being beaten by Musashi once using a sword is said to have gone off to develop what was to become Jōjutsu, which he later employed with success against Musashi... stick over sword, dunno if its true or not but a stick is more discreet and can be a readily found improvised object. But, if everyone was walking around with swords it would be a different story. If I was in the US I'd probably have a handgun for example, despite not thinking they should be allowed its just the lay of the land there.

Edit: I've posted it before, but I dig this scene from The Twilight Samurai

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TvxsHqFPj6M

I need to clarify my post because after reading it again it sure seemed like I was stating I was happy with my head in the sand and that is most certainly not it.

I agree with Goken in that those words are never uttered until you need them. Life is very much situational. I do train in a form of martial arts and I think its great for folks to take on.

For me I do need to know how to drive four wheel drive because just Saturday we got three inches of snow. Last year at this time we had a foot and half.

I needed to state that each situation requires a different response and those who are cross trained in many serve the best good because they are capable and ready for anything thrown at them.

I had a badly stated post. For that I am very sorry.