What's the difference between hunting and buying meat?

  • Visitor
  • Visitor
    Public
9 years 3 months ago - 9 years 3 months ago #178204 by

Mica wrote: I usually favor the meat of invertebrates, like shellfish and other spineless sea creatures, as well as insects, because I believe (biologically) that they do not suffer as much as organisms with more highly developed central nervous systems... but I'm not an expert, and even people who are experts in that field could be wrong! There hasn't been an agreement as to whether invertebrates associate emotionally with physical pain, like we do.


I'm an expert and they do although it's impossible to know if even another person feels pain and suffering the same way I do ,but they do feel it to some degree. In fact, it is illegal in many countries to perform surgical procedures on an octopus without anesthesia due to their intelligence. Source

Also, Nociception or pain in a decapod crustacean?
Last edit: 9 years 3 months ago by . Reason: Added another source

Please Log in to join the conversation.

  • Visitor
  • Visitor
    Public
9 years 3 months ago - 9 years 3 months ago #178207 by
one who hunts live prey is a carnivore.

one who buys meat is a scavenging carrion eater.

some carnivores are also carrion eaters. i myself delight in carrion.
Last edit: 9 years 3 months ago by .

Please Log in to join the conversation.

  • Visitor
  • Visitor
    Public
9 years 3 months ago - 9 years 3 months ago #178220 by

Vesha wrote:

Mica wrote: I usually favor the meat of invertebrates, like shellfish and other spineless sea creatures, as well as insects, because I believe (biologically) that they do not suffer as much as organisms with more highly developed central nervous systems... but I'm not an expert, and even people who are experts in that field could be wrong! There hasn't been an agreement as to whether invertebrates associate emotionally with physical pain, like we do.


I'm an expert and they do although it's impossible to know if even another person feels pain and suffering the same way I do ,but they do feel it to some degree. In fact, it is illegal in many countries to perform surgical procedures on an octopus without anesthesia due to their intelligence. Source

Also, Nociception or pain in a decapod crustacean?


Good point. Yes, I understand that octopi are incredibly intelligent as far as invertebrates go... even as far as animals in general go. I read a story about Jane Goodall witnessing an octopus breaking out of it's tank at an aquarium, crawling to the opening of another tank, opening the lid, dipping one tentacle into the water to catch a fish, CLOSING the lid after finishing it's meal, crawling back to it's own tank, and closing THAT lid on it's way back into it's tank.

However, I had the notion that shrimp, as well as many land insects like ants, grasshoppers, etc., never show any signs of aversion to pain. I've also read that some researchers theorize that these insects wouldn't have to evolve to feel pain, because all of their behavior is programmed, not learned. Of course, no one can say objectively until we develop a way to share another organism's sensations, but what do you think about those arguments?

(Edited: Agh. Sorry. My mind must have blanked after reading the second link you posted, because there I went mentioning shrimp. I guess ants, grubs, and grasshoppers are still up for the topic, though.)
Last edit: 9 years 3 months ago by .

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
9 years 3 months ago - 9 years 3 months ago #178221 by steamboat28

Kohadre wrote: If it were NECESSARY to kill an animal in order to eat, I would do so without hesitation or issue. The problem I take, is that someone else has already butchered an animal with the intent of selling it for consumption.


An act which some of us couldn't afford growing up, so we were forced to hunt.

Mica wrote: I'm curious, what do others in this thread think about meat that is produced in a lab from stem cells, without harming actual animals?


There are many "humane" ways to take an animal's life for consumption. In fact, doing so produces far better quality and better tasting meat, since swift and humane killing methods don't give time for stress hormone cocktails to start tinkering with the taste, and swift kills also allow for faster cooling and processing, slowing decomposition and keeping the pH levels of the meat at places where they'll stay tender.

In addition, hunters and small-farm slaughterers are consistently confronted with the knowledge that their food used to be a live, it used to eat and breathe and have a face. That's something that consumer-only omnivores forget quite often, and it leads to a disrespect for the animal, its death, and its living conditions prior.
Last edit: 9 years 3 months ago by steamboat28.

Please Log in to join the conversation.

  • Visitor
  • Visitor
    Public
9 years 3 months ago #178222 by
whose to say a rock is not more intelligent than Bill Gates?
whose to say a giant clam is not smarter than Bill Gates?


just because you are not able to perceive evidence does not mean jack donkey.

some sects say the more you know the less you respond, and has it not been said by great apes that "pain is a figment of the imagination."

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
9 years 3 months ago - 9 years 3 months ago #178242 by OB1Shinobi
I had an experience today that made me think of tbis thread

While i was in the shower i saw a spider crawling up the wall opposite the showerhead
not there wasnt quite enough light in the shower for me to discern with cerainty but those familiar with widow spiders may recall the alternating black and tan pattern on the legsof the males
i only know about spiders close to where i live. Im not sure of the widows global dispertion

well i would have left this spider alone but for a general similarity to that design
and the fact that it was walking directly towrds my mothers loofa sponge which was hanging on the wall
so i killed it
and i rinsed its body and its blood off of my hands

this experience is one familiar to me
every time i kill something for this kind of reason i go through the same basic mental dialogue

"to kill a thing in fear is an insult to all life
to not kill something that can hurt you is asking to be hurt..
how certain am i that this spider would ever do anything but run away
its not trying to kill me out of fear
THATS CAUSE ITS NOT BIG ENOUGH YOU DOLT!.
even so
look it just a spider..
im just a man
yes, youre a HUMAN..
to kill a spider and to kill a man are the same thing
thats a huge stretch..
why else would you kill a man
but that youre afraid?
a man and a spider are not the same..
yes we are
except man is smart enough to see it
but too selfish to accept it
the rules that make it ok to kill a spider
are the same rules that make it ok to kill a man
spiders kill things too..
yes, viciously
so how great are they now?
no more less than us
we live selfishly
we see what we want to see
what do you see?.
we do what we want to do
what do you do?.
we take what we want to take
dont you want it?.
throw away whater we cant stuff into our faces
so no one else can stuff it into their faces
youre better?.
even when we die we die selfishly
we give ourselves to the ground dont we?.
we pump ourselves full of chemicals
hide ourselves in a box nothing can open
you know one day youll die just like the spider did..
yeah? crushed by a big chicken?
washed down the drain..
i dont like you
lol whats that got to do with anything?.."


i support killing and growing our own food, although i havent yet structured my life so as to do it

we are paying absurd amounts of money for the privaledge of being slowly poisoned by monsanto and others because we demand the flesh but refuse the blood

Lastly
we cant go back
but we can LOOK back
and when i look back i see that we deny our place as earth organisms
we are a natural part of the natural world
we have an unsurpassed ability to control and affect that world
but when we forget that we belong to it every bit as much as it belongs to us we end up with poison and waste and greed and want
we produce enough food to.feed our species several times.over and yet people starve while.trash receptacles get fat
fat recepticles get poisoned
all of this is a result of our determination to refuse our place in the natural world
i think its because so many cling to being better than tthe spider

People are complicated.
Last edit: 9 years 3 months ago by OB1Shinobi.

Please Log in to join the conversation.

More
9 years 3 months ago - 9 years 3 months ago #178252 by Adder
Perhaps the biggest difference between hunting and buying is the preparation time :silly:

I feel better when I put 'pests' back outside of 'my' space, alive and unharmed... and write it off as a navigation error! If theycould deconflict they might fair better more generally?!!

Knight ~ introverted extropian, mechatronic neurothealogizing, technogaian buddhist. Likes integration, visualization, elucidation and transformation.
Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med ~ Dis
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
Last edit: 9 years 3 months ago by Adder.

Please Log in to join the conversation.

  • Visitor
  • Visitor
    Public
9 years 3 months ago #178253 by
the difference is in the way the animals are born, raised, slaughtered, and prepared.

the way you perceive those differences is up to you.

i let most pest live with me. until they really pester me. then i just smash them, no need to waste time putting them out.

just kidding i put out a bee yesterday.

Please Log in to join the conversation.

  • Visitor
  • Visitor
    Public
9 years 3 months ago #178299 by

Mica wrote: "What's the difference between hunting and buying meat?"

My answer: it's the difference between choosing to take part in the predator/prey relationship (usually with a significant advantage, such as being able to kill your prey remotely with a projectile, using a scope to ensure as much accuracy as possible) and choosing to take part in the producer/consumer relationship (usually with some sense, however far in the back of your mind, that the meat you are consuming was grown in the bodies of animals who were put through a great deal of unnecessary suffering).

I would advocate vegetarianism or, better yet, veganism (the dairy and egg industries have their fair share of moral downfalls as well), but it would be hypocritical, since I too choose to buy and consume meat. I usually favor the meat of invertebrates, like shellfish and other spineless sea creatures, as well as insects, because I believe (biologically) that they do not suffer as much as organisms with more highly developed central nervous systems... but I'm not an expert, and even people who are experts in that field could be wrong! There hasn't been an agreement as to whether invertebrates associate emotionally with physical pain, like we do.

Most of my friends are strictly against genetically modified organisms and any kind of "Franken-food" (as they call it) in general, and I personally don't agree with modifying plants to contain pesticides, or resistances to herbicides. I think Monsanto and other BioTech companies are very rash in doing so, and that European countries are right to ban such technology from their agribusiness. However, one innovation that I agree with is the emergence of in-vitro meat production.

I'm curious, what do others in this thread think about meat that is produced in a lab from stem cells, without harming actual animals? The technology isn't practical yet, but in a decade or two it may be. If it appeared on shelves, would you choose it over CAFO-(confined animal feeding operation)-produced meat?

Also, I should add that there is a significant reason why most people in the world seem to prefer meat protein over plant protein, and that's that animal protein is much more efficiently processed by the body for it's own uses, as the animal proteins are already in a very similar form. My source on that is my mother, who is a vegan dietician.
I add this because when I bring up the topic of in-vitro meat, I usually get the response, "Isn't the easier and thus better solution to simply go vegan?" And I respond with this, and point out that most people in the world, today, probably wouldn't go vegan if they had the choice. Of course, there are a lot of remarkably convincing, delicious meat-mimicking food products out there these days, and they seem to be catching on.


people like meat because of the smell of cooked meat. i almost posted an article on it the other day on this forum. mushrooms have a meaty texture and are absolutely delicious. different mushrooms even have different textures as do different meats.

honestly, i'm not sure what to think of franken meat grown in a lab. i heard how KFC changed from Kentucky Fried Chicken for that reason. Chicken isn't grown in a lab.

if it weren't for jaguars and wolves i may be a vegetarian or vegan even. turtles eat vegetables. how many snakes and dragons eat strawberries and asparagus?

Please Log in to join the conversation.

  • Visitor
  • Visitor
    Public
9 years 3 months ago #178300 by
are there turtle dragons living on Jupiter?

Please Log in to join the conversation.

Moderators: ZerokevlarVerheilenChaotishRabeRiniTavi