2020 Protests

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03 Jun 2020 18:22 #352479 by Carlos.Martinez3
Replied by Carlos.Martinez3 on topic 2020 Protests
Management


This is my meat and potatoes

Last night in my local area after the protesters who were organized by the Actual Black Life’s Matter association here - after they left last night ANOTHER group of people vandalized ALOT of things. It was pretty obvious. That’s a benift of good management and good organization.

There are people still getting sick and people are still dying. Kids can’t go to school and there fighting in the streets.
Seems like it happened overnight

Pastor of Temple of the Jedi Order
pastor@templeofthejediorder.org
Build, not tear down.
Nosce te ipsum / Cerca trova
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03 Jun 2020 21:20 #352489 by
Replied by on topic 2020 Protests
It is very sad to see the pain that we go through Until we all learn to love each other more than we love ourselves or I should say at least the same

My statements are probably outdated but when I graduated The sheriff's department.
It was After the Rodney king incident so we have a lot of knowledge on what not to do.

It's kind of funny you start out being taught to be peace officers and your diploma actually says peace officer.
But as soon as you get in a car now you are transformed into a Law enforcement. enforcing every infraction without question
And overcoming any opposition no matter what the cost.

It's really a mindset they need to start Changing.
when we're kids and then of course they need to change the core curriculum in lawinforcment training.

And be trained in that they are public servants and not the masters.

Even the 1st kings of Israel were commanded to read the law day-and-night so that way they didn't think their head was above anyone else's


It's going to be another hard lesson but I continued to believe we are all one.

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04 Jun 2020 14:16 #352515 by OB1Shinobi
Replied by OB1Shinobi on topic 2020 Protests
Former President Barack Obama released a statement.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oqYcVWtitqc

People are complicated.
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23 Jun 2020 23:21 - 23 Jun 2020 23:35 #352982 by OB1Shinobi
Replied by OB1Shinobi on topic 2020 Protests
I dont even know how i should explain what this video is. I think i will just say that its worth watching.
https://www.newswars.com/black-woman-weeps-while-walking-through-looted-store-i-cant-even-feed-my-damn-kids/

The above article is very sad. This one is inspiring.
https://ussanews.com/News1/2020/06/23/black-man-with-contentious-cop-history-risks-life-to-save-officer-from-burning-car-this-man-is-my-brother-through-christ/

People are complicated.
Last edit: 23 Jun 2020 23:35 by OB1Shinobi.
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24 Jun 2020 11:39 - 24 Jun 2020 11:42 #352999 by Kobos
Replied by Kobos on topic 2020 Protests
There has been a lot of pain in the wake of these protests. Some say it is "growing pains" of reform I disagree with this though as there has been a highly organized component to these protest that has very (IMHO) little to do with the original reasons behind these protests.

Obi, I remember in Missouri when the only gas station in Fergueson burned, people in the area had to begin going a town over to buy gas. This was not an option for some and that damage to the community was something that took years before another company would build another station.

We should not forget the unintended casualties of these protests, and there are many.

Most of us don't agree with how many historical figures lived their lives and the standards at the time the lived (Jefferson, Washington, Lincoln). However, to lash out at historical monuments and erase them is a bad idea. The positive ideas these monuments represent should not be lost.

Much Love,
Kobos

What has to come ? Will my heart grow numb ?
How will I save the world ? By using my mind like a gun
Seems a better weapon, 'cause everybody got heat
I know I carry mine, since the last time I got beat
MF DOOM Books of War

Training Masters: Carlos.Martinez3 and JLSpinner
TB:Nakis
Knight of the Conclave
Last edit: 24 Jun 2020 11:42 by Kobos. Reason: Added Statement
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29 Jun 2020 19:26 #353085 by
Replied by on topic 2020 Protests

OB1Shinobi wrote: Whether you want to say its Antifa or the alt-right/white supremacists, or the mafia or the cia or the Russians or whatever, there is a non-organic element that is exploiting these protests as an opportunity to cause anarchy.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Y_nikV7vYgg


The word you are looking for is "accelerationists" and it isn't an organization or even a belief system as much as a way to implement one's preferred political system.

Long story short, accelerationists believe that in order for their system of choice to come about the previous system must be destroyed. Because of this belief accelerationists will do whatever it takes to hasten the destruction of whatever system they live under.

Lastly, please note that accelerationism isn't left or right. One of the first people who mentioned it on the left was Karl Marx and nowadays one of the most well known accelerationists is Brenton Harrison Tarrant, the perpetrator of the Christchurch mosque shooting.

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07 Oct 2020 17:44 #355138 by
Replied by on topic 2020 Protests
Hello

Sorry this response is a little delayed, however I do want to put my two cents in.

Like MOST of you, I do agree that "BLACK LIVES MATTER" but like MOST of you, I also agree SOMETIMES people take things too far!

That being said- I was at the protests!
We were in Eugene Or, Portland OR (For over a month) and KENOSHA WI (during the shooting)

This being said- we were not there necessarily for BLM - but more for HOLD THE POLICE ACCOUNTABLE !
To me it doesn't matter what color you are, or where you are from, we should all be nice to each other, period!
That being said I have NO TOLERANCE for hate groups, including but not limited too NAZI(s) Proud BOYS and EVEN THE EXTREME BLM side of things.

Now please understand I do have children of mixed races, it really doesn't bother me. However hating someone for something as stupid as the color of their skin is not right, by any means, and does not follow the jedi way
Only Siths deal with Absolute- That being said we are all humans on this planet trying to survive together.
So It irritates me that not only "Proud BOYS" target peaceful people like myself- when we are just trying to get Law enforcement officials to be held liable for their actions the way any of us would be (especially when they have been trained and we haven't)
So that being said I'd like to take a moment to talk about the other side of things
In Portland, at the protest they had "RIOT RIBS" which was basically free food to anyone- including the homeless, But BLM made it a POINT to send the WHITEs to the back of the line, THEY MADE IT A POINT to tell us we were there to be the front lines and PROTECT BLM, and we were not allowed to talk on the megaphone (even though i have been abused by police myself in the past) ... and in APPLETON WI they tried making WHITE FEMALES who PARTICIPATED pay! like literately PAY to be part of their movement! all because apparently female slave owners years ago resided in that area...

SO my wife and myself are standing there, FIGHTING FOR PEACE, and we got hatred on all sides! BLM, NAZI, and POLICE!
and again, all we want is equality for ALL!
So our travels (we are full time RVers) then took us to Kenosha (to see my family in my hometown), where the man was shot by police just after a week of us being in town- so they started protesting, Being that we have been doing this for MONTHS and they are only DAYS in- my Wife and I stock the truck with snacks and water and she took it down to Kenosha to pass them out. We know how thirsty n hungry you get out there.
AGAIN my wife did not discriminate, she gave water/food to EVERYONE and ANYONE who needed it, Cops, proud boys and BLM protesters.
That night, that kyle kid opened fire- just a few yards from where my wife was parked handing out food.
Now from what we saw- is very different from what the media says- The live stream will show you what happened but what is not being told is that kyle walked around to everyone asking if they needed a medic and if you replied with NO he would then respond with "You will, You will."
That being said I think that kid who crossed state borders with a loaded gun (all while under age) came there with the intention of NOT BEING PEACEFUL!
It has taken my family some time to cope and realize just how lucky we got that night, and how grateful we are for still being together, However it also brought another source of pain we feel for the family of those lost that night, as it COULD HAVE BEEN US!

I'm not trying to choose sides (again I dislike all hate groups) and I am not trying to persuade anyone one way or another!
I JUST WANT PEACE!
People should be treated as just that, PEOPLE!
Cops should be held to a higher standard and not get away with wrongful murder!
And ALL HATE GROUPS need to come to an end.

But MOST IMPORTANTLY - we must stop the violence, we live in an age of technology and communication and should be able to use those to our advantage in understanding each other. We need peace- we need to be able to settle our arguments and disagreements without someone losing a loved one or in fear for their own family.

We have taken the tear gas, the rubber bullets, Had people try to run us over, aim guns at us, ect. Been there done that, and ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!
This is not the world I want my children raised in, This is not the world I wanted to be in as an adult.

So I'm asking everyone- pass along the message of PEACE!
PEACE MAN! i know it sounds like some hippie crap - but I think we can all agree we would rather argue with our neighbors than be at war with them.

And if anyone has questions regarding what we experienced, or anything please ask- I have nothing to hide.

but even if you disagree with my stance on police or w.e - we shouldn't disagree on PEACE!

REMAIN PEACEFUL! The kids of the future will thank you!

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08 Oct 2020 15:59 #355162 by ZealotX
Replied by ZealotX on topic 2020 Protests
@Dadof2many


Your response, my brother, is most welcome. You spoke the truth. You spoke from experience. You spoke from love. And that's the most anyone can ask for. I truly appreciate everything you and your family have done in the struggle for equality and justice. I thank you for taking the risks and being a light in a dark place.

I'm sure it was quite a surprise to be there. I can only imagine. You were there at ground zero in the vortex; the collision of love and hate, good and evil, positive and negative.

I am glad to hear your story and that you and your family came through it safely, especially knowing that... it could have been you.

"It could have been me." is a statement I want us to marinate on. Sometimes it seems like we have to get far too close to say this, to truly feel what someone else felt. However this is the very reason for the BLM protests. "It could have been me" is something I definitely feel having survived situations with the police that could have easily gone sideways. It is the fear that black people feel when they see those flashing lights behind them. Sometimes your heart even skips a beat because you don't know this officer any more than he knows you. To him, you have the potential to be a Kyle and therefore he treats you with that potential in mind. And because you know and understand his fear you see his potential to be a Kyle and to kill you based on his biases against against your color or class.

"It could have been me" is something all black people feel especially when we understand the danger, the action and reaction danger, in not holding police accountable so that they have no fear of playing judge, jury, and executioner, knowing that all they have to say is that they were afraid of us.

unarmed. doesn't matter.
educated. doesn't matter.
rich. doesn't matter.
successful. doesn't matter.
legal permits. doesn't matter.
gender. doesn't matter.
polite. doesn't matter.
in your own home. doesn't matter.
innocent. doesn't matter.

Everything we are told to do by 'concerned citizens' to protect ourselves in these situations are all things we've been doing for longer than they have thought to offer that advice. We've quietly had to adapt over decades but all the while developing mistrust, not just for the police, but for the society that allows them to get away with being bigger and worse criminals than many of the people they arrest.

And we know it isn't all police officers. That's obvious. But we have to recognize that being a police officer offers a position of power and authority and that is desirable for many people who seek some measure of these things. That especially includes racists. Even some who may not start the job with these thoughts and ideologies can be indoctrinated over time by racist officers who constantly attack inclusion and diversity and have their 'special names' for different ethnic groups.

No one just "does their jobs". Because we're not machines. We have opinions. And when racists share their opinions on the job it works to dehumanize their subjects. Once they and other cops accept certain people as less human well then it really doesn't matter to them what happens to those people as a result of their actions. To them its just "one less _____".

We don't even worry about the most of the kyles of the world. We know they fundamentally exist. We worry about the Kyles who get older and get badges. And then when they do the same thing their fellow boys in blue give them pats on the back and hand shakes and, like a video game, there's usually no real consequences.

And even if you have a Kyle who isn't racist... because these are not the only people who should never get badges, never be allowed to operate with the authority of the state, what if you have a person who is simply a psychopath who just wants to kill and terrorize people? Why don't they do it? Because there are consequences in real life. But if we're signaling to them that they can do it and get paid for it... then not only will that attract them into being police officers but it will also make them target minorities, not necessarily because they're racist but because there are less consequences for targeting those groups.

That's what the protests are really about.

The only thing said that I would disagree with is that there exists an "extreme BLM". I disagree because as someone who has been part of organizing something before and being on exactly that type of phone call, there are always going to be people who think your methods are too soft; who think whatever protest you're talking about is not going to create enough of a consequence that the other side will feel. Those extremists are NOT BLM and aren't really trying to be. They are their own agents of chaos and I say chaos because they commit to these actions without knowing what the end result will be. They are simply emotionally charged with negative energy that needs somewhere to go.

When a terrorist attack creates collateral damage, there is more damage than whatever was caught in the blast radius. The people who were outside the radius were also damaged. You're forcing them to see their own people dying and suffering, knowing it could have been them. If they had walked to the store a little sooner or the bomb veered a few feet off course... any number of things could have changed events because even if they are different from the target person they are no different from the people around the target person.

The threat increases when you live in certain neighborhoods, and when you belong to multiple hated groups. Plenty of men don't like women. So when its a black lesbian in a low income housing unit that's like 4 different groups and the target over that person head is 4 times bigger. And it's not like police don't abuse whites also. We know they do. But they don't target white people. If they have to respond to a call then a white person can be in just as much danger but they're not searching for them. They're not pulling them to the side and asking if they belong in nicer communities.

The reason BLM has to manage white protesters differently from black protesters is not because they want to. And I understand if this never gets explained or explained well and so it wouldn't surprise me if many white supporters come away disappointed because they don't understand.

In their minds they're helping and should be part of the "us" that is protesting. But the organizers are fully aware of the potential threat of people claiming to be part of the "us" who have hidden agendas. Even black people often have hidden agendas and no one has a psychic detector to figure out who everyone is. If such a thing existed then the police should use it to prevent racists from ever joining. But alas, such a magical device does not exist. And therefore organizers have to do the best they can. If whites are grouped together, it's less likely that a white person embedded in the crowd (like a Kyle) who is there to cause chaos and havoc, can throw something at a police officer, making it look like the hurled object came from black protestors because that's what the police are going to think. That's what the news coverage will think.

Black people with extreme views may at least not be the first one to provoke something but may wait to see if others do. If they see a window break they may take that as a cue to start looting a local business. But they're not necessarily going to throw something at the cops to endanger the black people around them the way that a white racist kyle would. And so if you group the whites together you minimize that possible threat. Most of us have seen whites in videos, breaking windows or setting a business on fire. And they know when they do it the protest will be blamed. They know BLM will get blamed for it. And they know it's counter productive to what BLM is trying to accomplish. The truth is they want the chaos and don't truly care that much about the cause. Even the black people who do it. The cause of BLM isn't about revenge or retribution. It's about justice. That's different. That's the cause. If your agenda is revenge then you're not there as BLM. You're representing your own selfish interests, driven by your amped up emotions and the anger and hate that have developed in your consciousness. This is not construction, only destructive.

By keeping the whites together you also limit the ability for those revenge seekers who are black to do things and blame it on white people in the crowd. I've heard people like that, one the phone, in conference calls, and they try to radicalize other people and push for a more radical approach. So you have to consider them too and if it was a big integrated mix of people you would have very little control.

I wouldn't give anyone a megaphone who wasn't pre-vetted as part of the BLM organization. Because you don't know what they're going to say or what kind of chant they might try to start. "Pigs in a blanket"? That was terrible and became a bigger weapon for the opposition to kill positive change then any positive effect that it may have been intended by the unthinking individual who started it. But if you only see black people on the megaphone you may not notice that it's not just any black person who gets it. It's not random because it cannot be random because you cannot trust everyone, black or white, to say the right thing; when what they say is going to be associated with BLM. So anyone on the mic, any reporter, is going to attribute those words to BLM.

Another issue, is that black people also know, in general terms, that a lot of "liberal" folks like to use us and our struggle to make themselves either look better or simply feel better about themselves. That's not what BLM is for. If they want to do that they have other platforms no one is stopping them from using.

So I apologize if it seems unfair, but the the potential threat to the organization creates the need to minimize risk as much as possible because we honestly do know what we're fighting against. We know there are a lot of racists out there, in and out of uniform, protecting each other, whether they are in blue or not. We know there is insititutional and systematic racism because we've been hit with it, literally, for generations. So we don't have to convince ourselves of that. We have to convince the majority white society of that and the ones who aren't racist don't necessarily want to see the full extent of racism because they don't want to imagine it is that pervasive and they don't want to be responsible for confronting it, even though they know they have racist father, uncles, etc. But as black people are the main targets of racists we don't have the luxury of ignoring this problem and would rather confront it as peacefully as possible even though it is literally killing and re-enslaving us through federal and private prisons. And the fear that "it could have been me" is simply a fact of life we have to deal with simply because of the color of our skin.

So again... I apologize for your negative experience. I'm also happy you shared your positive experience and that you are again safe and sound and out of harms way. From the bottom of my heart I thank you for your support because you didn't have to do it. You didn't have to go there; and yet you did. We appreciate that. The world needs more like you.

May the Force be with you.
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09 Oct 2020 05:20 #355188 by
Replied by on topic 2020 Protests
Thank you, ZealotX. Every time I am still trying to formulate my thoughts into words, you already have facts, presentation, and experience to back it up. I'm learning a lot from your writing, your experience, and your approach.

And thank you, Dadof2many. It's uplifting to see the stories of others who are willing to do their part for justice, despite the risks to themselves.

One of the themes in both your posts that I think gets overlooked by the media and the general public: BLM is not an organization with training and resources like the police or even some of the militias that come in to agitate. By which I mean, as a protestor coming in, there's not a lot anyone can do to make sure I know how to be a positive influence right from the start. We talk about how as a Jedi group we must be cautious about how we present ourselves because of how the public sees us, but that is amplified to a level of absurdity when it comes to race issues. People expect even 19 year olds with no training and a lifetime of racial abuse to behave like politicians with an awareness of their words and actions that take years of training and support for anyone to acquire. It's a difficult journey to come from a background of pain and suffering into a space you can fight for your rights and then find that you are expected to think of all possible connotations of your words and actions. And it feels like a losing battle when no matter how hard you try, someone always seems to take things the wrong way. Which is what I think it really means to remember that anyone who is not black is a guest in a BLM space. I can understand some of the issue, through my own experience as a hispanic guy. But I cannot understand every aspect of it. The best I can do in a BLM space when I feel disenfranchised is to listen and seek to understand, and perhaps avoid the people who I cannot understand until my experiences with others leads me to a greater understanding of the situation. I know I would have trouble explaining myself well to an ally in a fight for my rights under stressful circumstances, and I would assume that is a struggle for most of us when we are at our most vulnerable.

Honestly, that's one of the reasons I've stuck around with this group as a Jedi. I need resources to help me develop my skills further in choosing my words and presentation wisely. I need to be able to use these skills under extreme pressure. I've spent the last decade improving my soft skills, and it still feels like every little mistake I make is used as an excuse for how I'm actually the aggressive one. So if that's my experience as just a hispanic guy, how much is that going on for every black person in the nation right now, especially if they choose to be activists and speak up? We choose to be Jedi and learn how to find peaceful solutions, here on these boards. But a group whose unifying goal is the safety of black people is constantly having to learn and adjust to whatever narrative the media projects, without the luxury of every participant having the same goals or values (or even close). PR is a difficult game, and one untrained attendee can be the difference between a successful day and a failure if the media just latches onto whatever they did in the right light. Which really makes me appreciate ZealotX's explanation of why the BLM protests attempt to keep the racial groups clear. If such a strategy makes it clear where the bad actors are, and keeps the amount of lying and trickery down, it seems like the only viable strategy for the situation.

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09 Oct 2020 12:42 - 09 Oct 2020 14:25 #355195 by OB1Shinobi
Replied by OB1Shinobi on topic 2020 Protests
This post is a complete break from the ongoing conversation. Please forgive me.

“We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.--That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, --That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security.”

People are complicated.
Last edit: 09 Oct 2020 14:25 by OB1Shinobi.

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