The Problem with Black Lives Matter

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09 Jun 2017 11:26 - 09 Jun 2017 11:30 #287101 by ZealotX

OB1Shinobi wrote: @ZealotX

ive read your posts and i appreciate them.. im also reviewing the links you shared.
i might not be able to respond tonight because there is a lot of content..

i think we're going to have a very meaningful conversation.

Ive begun my reply but i dont have time to finish it. Iim not goingto give a partial response to the things that youve said. in the mean time, please take a gander at the following, as they all have relevance to specific things youve mentioned here, and offer some insight on my views


https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/open-discussions/113066-celebrities-you-can-see-as-jedi-s


https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/open-discussions/112168-example-of-police-militarization?limitstart=0


https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/open-discussions/115302-about-police-shootings-in-america-duh?limitstart=0


I found myself sympathetic to much of what the young man said. Im posting this particularly in regards to the question of violence..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wG_xm-J7Z4



I just want you to know that I followed your links and watched the videos. The Daily Show video is probably the best on the subject. I feel the same way. I defend BLM because it is one organization that is allowed to react to the racism that disproportionately targets minorities. HOWEVER, again, that doesn't mean that there isn't an escalation in terms of brutality and armament that affects us all. Just because a racist cop treats black people like runaway slaves doesn't mean he's automatically going to be a gentleman to everyone else. Sometimes A-hole is an A-hole is an A-hole. And just like there are different parts of a computer, we need different organizations putting pressure on the police. And I can tell you that it does work. Even if they say it isn't because of BLM, my local police department has done more to communicate with the community. I actually attended one of the meetings and was even interviewed for TV. BLM fighting the problem is a good thing. We need other organizations to do the same. If your bigger concern is the Army/PTSD aspect of the issue there's NOTHING wrong with that. Use that to put pressure of the police. Attacking BLM only lessens that pressure and gives the police a reason not to change.

You can support BLM to whatever degree you choose but champion your own cause. BLM never set out to be the only organization putting pressure on the police. That pressure is a direct result of the pain BLM feels, not just because of the deaths because we're used to each other dying, but because of the RACISM and injustice that not just leads to these deaths, but creates a system of white supremacy that allows people to get away with it. Black person kills another black person, they'll probably get caught and they'll probably go to jail. My god-brother got shot and killed just recently by another black person; some young kid. But when a white cop shoots a black kid... a kid even... there's always a bigger chance that cop will not suffer any legal consequence. And that sends a message too to other cops. "it's okay." "Go ahead and pull the trigger." "Kill that nigger." At some point the lack of consequence makes killing us "inconsequential". And if it is such then the lives of black people really don't matter to this system of government. And that's their concern.

But if your main concern is different and you were attacking the army/PTSD angle and someone attacked you and claimed you were ignoring the racism angle, that person would be wrong, especially if you've never said anything against BLM. But not only would that person be wrong for attacking you, we could reasonably assume they're doing so, not on the behalf or behest of BLM, but because they are otherwise motivated to try and stop you. Maybe they are being paid by the NRA? Who knows? There are too many guns in the US. They don't make us safer. They just make us more scared of each other because too many people can "push a button" and you're dead. And the people most motivated to protect the status quo in that case would be the gun manufacturers who make a profit as a result. So I ask again. Who benefits from attacking BLM? These attacks against BLM are, in essence, an attack on the legitimacy of racism being a problem in police culture. Who benefits from that?
Last edit: 09 Jun 2017 11:30 by ZealotX.
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09 Jun 2017 12:05 #287102 by ZealotX

Kobos wrote:
This is something I am all to aware of and it's sad because it also reinforces certain things that people use to drive the wedge (even though we all do it). Example, had I got popped when I was that guy, the assumption would be that I was just selling weed as a kid on the side. That's part right, I had a job but I also had tuition and well an addiction I was feeding. I digress, had my roommate gotten picked up (partners) I can almost guarantee there would have been a way more significant investigation. This is all assumptions but mid-central IL is pretty solid on doing stuff like that as is society here in the US in general.


Bill Maher did the same thing. Studies have shown whites sell weed just like black people do. The problem is just that black people are made into the face of it while whites are seen as more the victims. Now that heroin addiction is really hitting the white community, NOW there's more interest in tackling the problem. As much as my younger self didn't want to think there was institutional racism, when I learned about how they prosecuted crack differently from cocaine it was impossible to ignore. Literally, a different form of the same drug and the penalties were different. They didn't care that crack cocaine ravaged the black community. And as long as they could blame it on criminals and lowlifes mainstream society could easily turn a blind eye. They could just shake their heads and judge the morality of the people that used drugs as if we were somehow different than them.

Kobos wrote: The Neo and Agent Smith is a very good metaphor for the situation from my perspective. To it I have a new metaphorical response so excuse if its badly worried. You compare the white people to Neo when we have this conversation. But, what if I told you white people approaching this from my angle are simply like Morpheus, we are always looking to believe that there is a Neo and crew out there whom will initiate change and we are willing to put aside ourselves and fight for you. Ironically many of the whites that I would say haven't had this direct interaction or an understanding are just the crew. Those with open minds will still help they have been freed. But, they in some way must be shown they believe instead of just knowing it. End Matrix Metaphor........It sounded better in my head let me know if it doesn't make sense. Point is there are more open minds than are willing to say it, some stick to defenses and point to data. But most are willing to listen if you are willing to speak. Though I don't understand that fear as I haven't faced it on race nor do i fully grasp your perspective.


Well the reason I wouldn't say that conscious whites are like Morpheus is because Morpheus was "born free". He was born knowing the full truth of humanity and its relation to the machines. Neo is the one who had a choice to make. Neo is the one who could choose to wake up or stay sleep. But Neo is the one who is most effective in fighting the machines. Neo can fight them in a way that Morpheus can't. Neo can even COMMAND the machines... Neo... "much like a teacher" (wink, wink)... is a programmer.

Neo essentially got his own crew and they looked for more people they could wake up. I am happy to see communities of humans, white and black, who are CONSCIOUS or "woke". They see what their government is doing. They see the larger needs of the planet. They see injustice without partisanship and justifications. There is a growing movement of progressives who don't always get it right but their heart is in the right place and what more can we possibly ask for than that? Not to say that everyone on this site is "woke" but I am happy to be among all of you and I do consider this site to be a concentration of consciousness and enlightenment and I'm proud of everyone here. There is hope for the future because of our ideals and our understanding. One of the most powerful things I ever heard was a story about a black man who made friends with many members of the KKK. His solution wasn't hate and it wasn't fighting. It was love. He really wanted to know how could someone hate him if they didn't even know him. His love and friendship changed their minds.
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09 Jun 2017 13:15 - 09 Jun 2017 13:17 #287103 by Wescli Wardest
I have been told that because I am a white man that I don’t know what I’m talking about and I shouldn’t talk. Seeing how I am not racist, I understand that all suffering is unique to the individual experiencing it no matter the color of their skin, the amount of money they have, their religion, their sex or sexual preference or how smart they are perceived to be; I believe that I do have an opinion that is valid.

As a wiser person, and I like to think I am :P, I understand that by adopting the values or tactics of ones perceived enemy’s that I will only accomplish the goals of that enemy. So if I thought that my enemy’s goals were to separate us and their values or tactics was hate and racism and I adapt hate and racism as my values or tactics then I will accomplish the segregation and separation I believed was my enemy’s goal.

“The devil doesn’t mind who does the hating so long as the hating gets done.” ~Andrew Klavan


Practical religion… In different religions you read, forgive those that hurt you, love your enemy. As a person who has suffered at the hands of others I know that my best course of action to promote healing and equality is to let it go.

“Everyone is in favor of forgiveness until there is something to forgive.” C. S. Lewis.

As Jedi we believe that, Where there is hatred I shall bring love; Where there is injury, pardon; I shall never seek so much to be consoled as to console; To be understood as to understand; To be loved as to love; For it is in giving that we receive; It is in pardoning that we are pardoned…
When there is an offense made that violates a law we should act. But not everything that causes offense is a violation of law or our rights. Compassion and wisdom are paramount when dealing with people.

Have you ever met someone who might not have the highest IQ but they know how to love and they act so wise in their lives and actions then people that might have higher IQs that don’t really know how to love. This is the lesson that religion, practical religion, is showing us... a path to wisdom. A wisdom on how to interact with the soul.

If we accept each other and each person’s experiences then we can learn to coexist in a singular world that is more beautiful and wonderful.

Those are just my thoghts on it all.

Monastic Order of Knights
Last edit: 09 Jun 2017 13:17 by Wescli Wardest.
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09 Jun 2017 13:56 #287105 by ZealotX
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CE5o4JoyMkE
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19 Jun 2017 19:42 #288040 by ZealotX
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIXw7GSqS_4

Check out what Nick Cannon said about BLM.
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22 Jun 2017 13:21 #288281 by ZealotX
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OddPn5P1es

This is why BLM exists. Even if you do everything right, you can not only get shot, but the cop can get away with it. The NRA says nothing. The jury somehow believes the officer had a reasonable right to be afraid for his life. And he had his girlfriend and child in the car. If Philando wasn't black justice would have been served. Too bad.
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22 Jun 2017 14:26 #288285 by Kobos
Agreed, One thing I want to add, is an observation when I was instructing on fire arms on the side when I was a security guard. So, I had to work with a Police Sarge who graded my students on the range scores and I graded the Police cadets so it was a third party non-bias grade.........Anyway, the threat analysis taught is very very different.......and IMO it's a fine line but it has swayed to the point that everyone is a threat first as opposed to opposite. That mixed with inherent racial bias (overt or sub-conscious) is dangerous combination. This is no easy problem to fix either (I have no idea how we go back from here) but working towards and being aware of it together is a start. Thanks for keeping this conversation going Zealot it's important that we maintain this dialog.

What has to come ? Will my heart grow numb ?
How will I save the world ? By using my mind like a gun
Seems a better weapon, 'cause everybody got heat
I know I carry mine, since the last time I got beat
MF DOOM Books of War

Training Masters: Carlos.Martinez3 and JLSpinner
TB:Nakis
Knight of the Conclave

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22 Jun 2017 15:10 #288296 by
"being aware of it together is a start"

But you have to be aware that those biases exist, and from what I see, a large section denies their existence.

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22 Jun 2017 15:19 #288301 by Kobos

rrhodes67 wrote: "being aware of it together is a start"

But you have to be aware that those biases exist, and from what I see, a large section denies their existence.


True, hopefully though dialog here and what we take outside these "walls" can help make us as a whole more of a whole. It is not something that will be very easy nor will the numbers start large but they will eventually grow (It is my hopes anyway).

What has to come ? Will my heart grow numb ?
How will I save the world ? By using my mind like a gun
Seems a better weapon, 'cause everybody got heat
I know I carry mine, since the last time I got beat
MF DOOM Books of War

Training Masters: Carlos.Martinez3 and JLSpinner
TB:Nakis
Knight of the Conclave

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22 Jun 2017 16:08 #288306 by ZealotX
@Kobos

I sincerely thank you for your continued participation and for sharing your thoughts and ideas.

I have to admit, even though I know institutional racism exists and I know how often law enforcement gets away with killing black people I really did think that this case was going to be different. Watching the video I just knew there was no way that this officer was going to get away with it. It seemed like even he knew, after he'd done it, that he'd made a serious and costly mistake. I was shocked at the verdict in a way I haven't been in a long time. Why? Because the victim did EVERYTHING right. Now, personally I dislike the concept of guns (as a weapon) so I don't own any (even though I have gone to the shooting range and know that they are fun to shoot), but there's nothing wrong with owning a gun. He was licensed to carry and calmly informed the officer he had one. That didn't matter. His girlfriend was in the car. That didn't matter. He had a clean criminal record. That didn't matter. His kid was in the back seat. That didn't matter. This guy had absolutely ZERO reason to shoot the officer so the threat should have been ZERO. But for some reason, being black (because what else could it have been?), made he him so dangerous and unpredictable, that even though he was stopped for having a tail light out, there was a chance that he would go.... what.. feral? What is it about him that an officer would be willing to shoot first and ask questions later in this situation?

If it wasn't for activists we really wouldn't know about these cases like we do. Black people would simply keep getting reinforced the idea their lives don't matter to a lot of white people and the level of fear of the police in the black community would keep increasing. Black people already distrust the police and therefore don't help them when it comes to fighting crime. Because why would I involve the police when that would put my own life in danger. Amazingly enough, in some instances people who have called the police end up getting shot. There are people who feel that the media shows these things and black people react by thinking racism is a bigger problem than it is. This isn't true. It is when it ISN'T shown and isn't shown for what it is that Black people see America HIDING its racism problem. And why do you hide something? Because you don't want to deal with it and because you want to hold on to it.

And I understand why many whites don't want to talk about it. They feel like it isn't an issue because it's not their issue; because they aren't personally racist. That's understandable. But by having that conversation we normalize those who aren't racist as opposed to allowing the racists to believe they are the silent majority. Because how could they be racist unless there were certain ideas in their heads; ideas reinforced by other whites and never challenged because those ideas are never exposed or discussed with someone who has the knowledge, will, and testicular fortitude to challenge them? If every reason for racism, like every reason for terrorism, could be pushed into the public domain, the public spotlight, and have experts discuss them, break them down, and remove all traces of ignorance.... then we'd have more progress and might potentially get closer to seeing an end to it entirely.

How? Because racism is like a religion. It is a commonly held belief that benefits from group think. The biggest threat to religion is knowledge. So therefore, ways that we can bring awareness, not only to racial issues and the fact that they exist, but also educational solutions, would really benefit all of us and help make the whole world better.

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