The Problem with Black Lives Matter

OB1Shinobi wrote: @ZealotX

ive read your posts and i appreciate them.. im also reviewing the links you shared.
i might not be able to respond tonight because there is a lot of content..

i think we're going to have a very meaningful conversation.

Ive begun my reply but i dont have time to finish it. Iim not goingto give a partial response to the things that youve said. in the mean time, please take a gander at the following, as they all have relevance to specific things youve mentioned here, and offer some insight on my views


https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/open-discussions/113066-celebrities-you-can-see-as-jedi-s


https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/open-discussions/112168-example-of-police-militarization?limitstart=0


https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/open-discussions/115302-about-police-shootings-in-america-duh?limitstart=0


I found myself sympathetic to much of what the young man said. Im posting this particularly in regards to the question of violence..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5wG_xm-J7Z4

I just want you to know that I followed your links and watched the videos. The Daily Show video is probably the best on the subject. I feel the same way. I defend BLM because it is one organization that is allowed to react to the racism that disproportionately targets minorities. HOWEVER, again, that doesn't mean that there isn't an escalation in terms of brutality and armament that affects us all. Just because a racist cop treats black people like runaway slaves doesn't mean he's automatically going to be a gentleman to everyone else. Sometimes A-hole is an A-hole is an A-hole. And just like there are different parts of a computer, we need different organizations putting pressure on the police. And I can tell you that it does work. Even if they say it isn't because of BLM, my local police department has done more to communicate with the community. I actually attended one of the meetings and was even interviewed for TV. BLM fighting the problem is a good thing. We need other organizations to do the same. If your bigger concern is the Army/PTSD aspect of the issue there's NOTHING wrong with that. Use that to put pressure of the police. Attacking BLM only lessens that pressure and gives the police a reason not to change.

You can support BLM to whatever degree you choose but champion your own cause. BLM never set out to be the only organization putting pressure on the police. That pressure is a direct result of the pain BLM feels, not just because of the deaths because we're used to each other dying, but because of the RACISM and injustice that not just leads to these deaths, but creates a system of white supremacy that allows people to get away with it. Black person kills another black person, they'll probably get caught and they'll probably go to jail. My god-brother got shot and killed just recently by another black person; some young kid. But when a white cop shoots a black kid... a kid even... there's always a bigger chance that cop will not suffer any legal consequence. And that sends a message too to other cops. "it's okay." "Go ahead and pull the trigger." "Kill that nigger." At some point the lack of consequence makes killing us "inconsequential". And if it is such then the lives of black people really don't matter to this system of government. And that's their concern.

But if your main concern is different and you were attacking the army/PTSD angle and someone attacked you and claimed you were ignoring the racism angle, that person would be wrong, especially if you've never said anything against BLM. But not only would that person be wrong for attacking you, we could reasonably assume they're doing so, not on the behalf or behest of BLM, but because they are otherwise motivated to try and stop you. Maybe they are being paid by the NRA? Who knows? There are too many guns in the US. They don't make us safer. They just make us more scared of each other because too many people can "push a button" and you're dead. And the people most motivated to protect the status quo in that case would be the gun manufacturers who make a profit as a result. So I ask again. Who benefits from attacking BLM? These attacks against BLM are, in essence, an attack on the legitimacy of racism being a problem in police culture. Who benefits from that?

Kobos wrote:
This is something I am all to aware of and it's sad because it also reinforces certain things that people use to drive the wedge (even though we all do it). Example, had I got popped when I was that guy, the assumption would be that I was just selling weed as a kid on the side. That's part right, I had a job but I also had tuition and well an addiction I was feeding. I digress, had my roommate gotten picked up (partners) I can almost guarantee there would have been a way more significant investigation. This is all assumptions but mid-central IL is pretty solid on doing stuff like that as is society here in the US in general.

Bill Maher did the same thing. Studies have shown whites sell weed just like black people do. The problem is just that black people are made into the face of it while whites are seen as more the victims. Now that heroin addiction is really hitting the white community, NOW there's more interest in tackling the problem. As much as my younger self didn't want to think there was institutional racism, when I learned about how they prosecuted crack differently from cocaine it was impossible to ignore. Literally, a different form of the same drug and the penalties were different. They didn't care that crack cocaine ravaged the black community. And as long as they could blame it on criminals and lowlifes mainstream society could easily turn a blind eye. They could just shake their heads and judge the morality of the people that used drugs as if we were somehow different than them.

Kobos wrote: The Neo and Agent Smith is a very good metaphor for the situation from my perspective. To it I have a new metaphorical response so excuse if its badly worried. You compare the white people to Neo when we have this conversation. But, what if I told you white people approaching this from my angle are simply like Morpheus, we are always looking to believe that there is a Neo and crew out there whom will initiate change and we are willing to put aside ourselves and fight for you. Ironically many of the whites that I would say haven't had this direct interaction or an understanding are just the crew. Those with open minds will still help they have been freed. But, they in some way must be shown they believe instead of just knowing it. End Matrix Metaphor........It sounded better in my head let me know if it doesn't make sense. Point is there are more open minds than are willing to say it, some stick to defenses and point to data. But most are willing to listen if you are willing to speak. Though I don't understand that fear as I haven't faced it on race nor do i fully grasp your perspective.

Well the reason I wouldn't say that conscious whites are like Morpheus is because Morpheus was "born free". He was born knowing the full truth of humanity and its relation to the machines. Neo is the one who had a choice to make. Neo is the one who could choose to wake up or stay sleep. But Neo is the one who is most effective in fighting the machines. Neo can fight them in a way that Morpheus can't. Neo can even COMMAND the machines... Neo... "much like a teacher" (wink, wink)... is a programmer.

Neo essentially got his own crew and they looked for more people they could wake up. I am happy to see communities of humans, white and black, who are CONSCIOUS or "woke". They see what their government is doing. They see the larger needs of the planet. They see injustice without partisanship and justifications. There is a growing movement of progressives who don't always get it right but their heart is in the right place and what more can we possibly ask for than that? Not to say that everyone on this site is "woke" but I am happy to be among all of you and I do consider this site to be a concentration of consciousness and enlightenment and I'm proud of everyone here. There is hope for the future because of our ideals and our understanding. One of the most powerful things I ever heard was a story about a black man who made friends with many members of the KKK. His solution wasn't hate and it wasn't fighting. It was love. He really wanted to know how could someone hate him if they didn't even know him. His love and friendship changed their minds.

I have been told that because I am a white man that I don’t know what I’m talking about and I shouldn’t talk. Seeing how I am not racist, I understand that all suffering is unique to the individual experiencing it no matter the color of their skin, the amount of money they have, their religion, their sex or sexual preference or how smart they are perceived to be; I believe that I do have an opinion that is valid.

As a wiser person, and I like to think I am , I understand that by adopting the values or tactics of ones perceived enemy’s that I will only accomplish the goals of that enemy. So if I thought that my enemy’s goals were to separate us and their values or tactics was hate and racism and I adapt hate and racism as my values or tactics then I will accomplish the segregation and separation I believed was my enemy’s goal.

“The devil doesn’t mind who does the hating so long as the hating gets done.” ~Andrew Klavan

Practical religion… In different religions you read, forgive those that hurt you, love your enemy. As a person who has suffered at the hands of others I know that my best course of action to promote healing and equality is to let it go.

“Everyone is in favor of forgiveness until there is something to forgive.” C. S. Lewis.

As Jedi we believe that, Where there is hatred I shall bring love; Where there is injury, pardon; I shall never seek so much to be consoled as to console; To be understood as to understand; To be loved as to love; For it is in giving that we receive; It is in pardoning that we are pardoned…
When there is an offense made that violates a law we should act. But not everything that causes offense is a violation of law or our rights. Compassion and wisdom are paramount when dealing with people.

Have you ever met someone who might not have the highest IQ but they know how to love and they act so wise in their lives and actions then people that might have higher IQs that don’t really know how to love. This is the lesson that religion, practical religion, is showing us... a path to wisdom. A wisdom on how to interact with the soul.

If we accept each other and each person’s experiences then we can learn to coexist in a singular world that is more beautiful and wonderful.

Those are just my thoghts on it all.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CE5o4JoyMkE

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OIXw7GSqS_4

Check out what Nick Cannon said about BLM.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3OddPn5P1es

This is why BLM exists. Even if you do everything right, you can not only get shot, but the cop can get away with it. The NRA says nothing. The jury somehow believes the officer had a reasonable right to be afraid for his life. And he had his girlfriend and child in the car. If Philando wasn't black justice would have been served. Too bad.

Agreed, One thing I want to add, is an observation when I was instructing on fire arms on the side when I was a security guard. So, I had to work with a Police Sarge who graded my students on the range scores and I graded the Police cadets so it was a third party non-bias grade.........Anyway, the threat analysis taught is very very different.......and IMO it's a fine line but it has swayed to the point that everyone is a threat first as opposed to opposite. That mixed with inherent racial bias (overt or sub-conscious) is dangerous combination. This is no easy problem to fix either (I have no idea how we go back from here) but working towards and being aware of it together is a start. Thanks for keeping this conversation going Zealot it's important that we maintain this dialog.

"being aware of it together is a start"

But you have to be aware that those biases exist, and from what I see, a large section denies their existence.

rrhodes67 wrote: "being aware of it together is a start"

But you have to be aware that those biases exist, and from what I see, a large section denies their existence.

True, hopefully though dialog here and what we take outside these "walls" can help make us as a whole more of a whole. It is not something that will be very easy nor will the numbers start large but they will eventually grow (It is my hopes anyway).

@Kobos

I sincerely thank you for your continued participation and for sharing your thoughts and ideas.

I have to admit, even though I know institutional racism exists and I know how often law enforcement gets away with killing black people I really did think that this case was going to be different. Watching the video I just knew there was no way that this officer was going to get away with it. It seemed like even he knew, after he'd done it, that he'd made a serious and costly mistake. I was shocked at the verdict in a way I haven't been in a long time. Why? Because the victim did EVERYTHING right. Now, personally I dislike the concept of guns (as a weapon) so I don't own any (even though I have gone to the shooting range and know that they are fun to shoot), but there's nothing wrong with owning a gun. He was licensed to carry and calmly informed the officer he had one. That didn't matter. His girlfriend was in the car. That didn't matter. He had a clean criminal record. That didn't matter. His kid was in the back seat. That didn't matter. This guy had absolutely ZERO reason to shoot the officer so the threat should have been ZERO. But for some reason, being black (because what else could it have been?), made he him so dangerous and unpredictable, that even though he was stopped for having a tail light out, there was a chance that he would go.... what.. feral? What is it about him that an officer would be willing to shoot first and ask questions later in this situation?

If it wasn't for activists we really wouldn't know about these cases like we do. Black people would simply keep getting reinforced the idea their lives don't matter to a lot of white people and the level of fear of the police in the black community would keep increasing. Black people already distrust the police and therefore don't help them when it comes to fighting crime. Because why would I involve the police when that would put my own life in danger. Amazingly enough, in some instances people who have called the police end up getting shot. There are people who feel that the media shows these things and black people react by thinking racism is a bigger problem than it is. This isn't true. It is when it ISN'T shown and isn't shown for what it is that Black people see America HIDING its racism problem. And why do you hide something? Because you don't want to deal with it and because you want to hold on to it.

And I understand why many whites don't want to talk about it. They feel like it isn't an issue because it's not their issue; because they aren't personally racist. That's understandable. But by having that conversation we normalize those who aren't racist as opposed to allowing the racists to believe they are the silent majority. Because how could they be racist unless there were certain ideas in their heads; ideas reinforced by other whites and never challenged because those ideas are never exposed or discussed with someone who has the knowledge, will, and testicular fortitude to challenge them? If every reason for racism, like every reason for terrorism, could be pushed into the public domain, the public spotlight, and have experts discuss them, break them down, and remove all traces of ignorance.... then we'd have more progress and might potentially get closer to seeing an end to it entirely.

How? Because racism is like a religion. It is a commonly held belief that benefits from group think. The biggest threat to religion is knowledge. So therefore, ways that we can bring awareness, not only to racial issues and the fact that they exist, but also educational solutions, would really benefit all of us and help make the whole world better.

I think there should be a class in elementary school that teaches the core concepts of what we want America to be:
Freedom & Choice
Equality
Health & Wellness
Diversity
Anti-Sexism
Anti-Hate
Religious Freedom
Tolerance
Etc.



If racists don't want their kids to learn how to co-exist with other Americans then they can take their kids out of school. I feel like drugs and a lot of other problems in our society exist, in part, due to a lack of education and certain problems during childhood that don't get addressed.

ZealotX wrote: I think there should be a class in elementary school that teaches the core concepts of what we want America to be:
Freedom & Choice
Equality
Health & Wellness
Diversity
Anti-Sexism
Anti-Hate
Religious Freedom
Tolerance
Etc.

Very much agreed. One thing that should be taught to all children is Jane Elliots Brown Eyes/ Blue Eyes experiment. Not just the video of it, I think the children should experience what it is like to be told you are somehow less than another because of something you cannot change (this includes race, gender, sexuality).

I've put a video to the experiment below. A bit of a watch, and a bit dated, but definitly worth the watch.



Not the version I remember watching, but gets the point across. The version I remember watching did this experiment with kids over the course of a couple of days. Was a scary but amazing watch.

Also, there is a VR simulation of 9/11 meant to evoke an emotional response. I'd like to see that for the holocaust, slavery, etc. I don't think there's anything comes close to an experience that is happening to you.

Arisaig wrote: One thing that should be taught to all children is Jane Elliots Brown Eyes/ Blue Eyes experiment. Not just the video of it, I think the children should experience what it is like to be told you are somehow less than another because of something you cannot change (this includes race, gender, sexuality).

HIGHLY disagree. This woman and this experiment is horrible and to put children through it? The very idea at the suggestion just blows my mind away.

Now I can sit here all day and answer anyones response questioning why I feel this way however all I will say is simply this. We should never use violence physical, mental or even spiritual (this experiment is of the mental and spiritual kind) to teach lessons to anyone. Child or adult.

Anything else I have to say will detract from this thread and are purely personal based.

I am also not in agreement to VR Simulations ect ect.

If you want to teach children and adults to be GOOD. Then lead by example and make changes around you. Not enforce negative dictatorial responses for your (general) assumed "Lessons."

Arisaig wrote:

ZealotX wrote: I think there should be a class in elementary school that teaches the core concepts of what we want America to be:
Freedom & Choice
Equality
Health & Wellness
Diversity
Anti-Sexism
Anti-Hate
Religious Freedom
Tolerance
Etc.

Very much agreed. One thing that should be taught to all children is Jane Elliots Brown Eyes/ Blue Eyes experiment. Not just the video of it, I think the children should experience what it is like to be told you are somehow less than another because of something you cannot change (this includes race, gender, sexuality).

I've put a video to the experiment below. A bit of a watch, and a bit dated, but definitly worth the watch.

Jane Elliot's Brown Eyes/ Blue Eyes experiment

Not the version I remember watching, but gets the point across. The version I remember watching did this experiment with kids over the course of a couple of days. Was a scary but amazing watch.

THANK YOU FOR SHARING Jane Elliot with me!

That was really thought provoking and I watched another video of her on the Oprah show

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qzycqpRZ7cY

Honestly, when I come across white people like her or Time Wise my opinion of them is much higher. It's not because I dislike other white people. It's because their level of honesty and self-reflection allows them understand me and understanding is attractive. This is why I think the conversation is good. Because the more we can communicate in a healthy and respectful way the more we can build an understanding that will have a positive effect on our relationships. And as Jane understands, it's not healthy to pretend that we aren't what we are in terms of race. We try to ignore it and it's basically like trying not to see this person. And the only reason to try to ignore what a person looks like is if there's something wrong with how they look. But yeah... she's awesome.

Trisskar wrote:

Arisaig wrote: One thing that should be taught to all children is Jane Elliots Brown Eyes/ Blue Eyes experiment. Not just the video of it, I think the children should experience what it is like to be told you are somehow less than another because of something you cannot change (this includes race, gender, sexuality).

HIGHLY disagree. This woman and this experiment is horrible and to put children through it? The very idea at the suggestion just blows my mind away.

Now I can sit here all day and answer anyones response questioning why I feel this way however all I will say is simply this. We should never use violence physical, mental or even spiritual (this experiment is of the mental and spiritual kind) to teach lessons to anyone. Child or adult.

Anything else I have to say will detract from this thread and are purely personal based.

I am also not in agreement to VR Simulations ect ect.

If you want to teach children and adults to be GOOD. Then lead by example and make changes around you. Not enforce negative dictatorial responses for your (general) assumed "Lessons."

I do agree. What this woman did was horrid. But the horrible attocities that gave birth to movements such as BLM are the result of not understanding struggle or what it is to be put down just because of something you cannot change.

This would not have to be taught long term either. Teach a generation and a lesson will never die. Is it extreme? Yes. But to combat racism, which holds back our species as a whole over a thing as dumb as the colour of someone's skin, one must teach a lasting lesson.

To be able to step into someone else's shoes, to be put from the perceived "better race" to the "lower race" because of something you can't change, allows one to understand just the level of hate (self hate or otherwise) it must involve to be a racist.

My mother taught me this lesson from a very young age. I remember it well. I still see race (how could you not?), but it is little more than something that marks someone as who they are, not as less or more than their fellow man.

I can understand why you'd disagree. It is a drastic thing I propose. But if racism doesn't end naturally then I think it should be taught so that we may see the end of a frankly childish worldview.

His blade defends the helpless;
His Shield shelters the forsaken;
His justice undoes the wicked;

Above is just three lines of the Knight's code. We can spend a lifetime defending the helpless and sheltering the forsaken. We can also spend the rest of our lives undoing the wicked. But a Jedi also teaches.

His image brings peace;
His code breaks the darkness;
His legend brings light.

Above is what we do as teachers. Give a man a fish, and you feed him for a day. Teach a man to fish, and he's fed for life. The same can be said for this. Teach a generation to see past fickle things such as skin colour or ethnicity, and you change the world.

I know this will never be taught in school to the level I envision. It saddens me that racism will probably live on until this world ends. So I teach this lesson to myself and my future children so that they may teach theirs, and so on and so forth. Perhaps this mindset of compassion will become more commonplace one day.

There needs to be a distinction made between "learning" something and "experiencing" something. The Blue Eyes/Brown Eyes demonstration is meant to make people experience discrimination rather than just learn about it second hand. Right or wrong is debatable, but the reaction to this experience will be more visceral than simply reading about racism or other discrimination in a book.

I won't belittle BLM or try to compare the experience that black people have with law enforcement to my privileged upbringing, but the closest equivalency I have experienced is living with cancer. I don't feel discriminated against, but I can definitely tell you there is a difference between understanding cancer as a disease intellectually and actually experiencing it. Sometimes you have to actually go through the experience to really understand what is happening. My brother can learn about cancer, but he hasn't experienced it, so there will always be some disconnect. Just as I am not black, I will never know what it is to actually experience the institutional racism in our U.S. society. I can learn about it and try to change the culture, but I can never truly say I "get it". Instead, I try to acknowledge that the BLM movement raises legitimate concerns that need to be addressed by all of us, not just the black community.

Trisskar wrote:

Arisaig wrote: One thing that should be taught to all children is Jane Elliots Brown Eyes/ Blue Eyes experiment. Not just the video of it, I think the children should experience what it is like to be told you are somehow less than another because of something you cannot change (this includes race, gender, sexuality).

HIGHLY disagree. This woman and this experiment is horrible and to put children through it? The very idea at the suggestion just blows my mind away.

Now I can sit here all day and answer anyones response questioning why I feel this way however all I will say is simply this. We should never use violence physical, mental or even spiritual (this experiment is of the mental and spiritual kind) to teach lessons to anyone. Child or adult.

Anything else I have to say will detract from this thread and are purely personal based.

I am also not in agreement to VR Simulations ect ect.

If you want to teach children and adults to be GOOD. Then lead by example and make changes around you. Not enforce negative dictatorial responses for your (general) assumed "Lessons."

Black children and white children are already being put through "it" except what they're being put through is not an experiment.

The only thing Jane changed was the physical basis on which to judge. She changed it (from skin color) to eye color.

It is natural to see someone being mistreated as an abhorrent thing. But her experiment is temporary. Children learn racism and when they grow, their attitudes are not some temporary experiment. They are permanent and have permanent consequences.

Some parents spank their children based on the idea that to inflict temporary pain will train their child to avoid a lifetime of hurt. One of the reactions to her experiment was that it was harsh. People didn't want to witness that. And she was simply mean, rude, and treated people differently. She didn't hurt anyone. There were no lynchings. There was no cross burnings. No one had their foot cut off. No one was whipped so that their skin came off and left permanent scar tissue.

Some people think that because these things no longer occur or don't occur to the extent they once did, that racism is over. No, it's not. The fundamental psychology that allows people to be treated this way is still with us. And it is this fundamental psychology that is at the heart of racism and that's what her experiment deals with.

This isn't a matter of experience. In my opinion.

There is plenty of history both new and old that tells of great atrocity made against the white race. Including slavery that was sometimes worse than how blacks were treated (As history tells)

Yet that is not experience enough in the eyes of others.

I can sit here and tell you that I have experienced Racism. Being in an International High school and it's natural segregation of the students races. Being looked at like I was an alien for daring to even attempt to sit at There table (ended up sitting alone after that)

But that experience will never be enough in the eyes of other races. Not in there opinion.

My daughter has been bullied by blacks because she is white.....I have had to wipe her tears and force her out the door when she was fearful to go because of the treatment of the other students.

But that isn't the right kind of experience in other races eyes. We are told that it is "Not the same." and that we can "Never Understand"

So who exactly has the right to decide which experience is more important to have than the other?

Who has that right and that authority?

Simply put. No one.

Nor are we meant to experience other peoples experiences. That should never be our goal. We are each unique and beautiful people because of these experiences both the good and the bad.

No. What we need is the courage to lead our local communities towards Positive action and results. Not bullying experiences into others because you feel justified to share your pain.

I'm not sure I agree. I've seen where politicians in some cities were forced to live with a disability for a day. Does it give them the full experience. No, but it does open their eyes to some of the barriers that are faced. I used the same idea for a speech in college. I removed someone's ability to use their hands They then had to carry their books, operate the doors, etc. The speech was on the importance of the Americans with Disabilities Act. You can tell people what it's like all the time, but for many people it goes in one ear and out the other, unless they are allowed to see it first hand. It's kind of like that "walk a mile in their shoes" thing.