What is it like to feel gender?

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3 years 5 months ago - 3 years 5 months ago #355573 by Adder

Eqin Ilis wrote: My frustration comes from the fact I've repeatedly outlined how diverse gender identity and experiences can be. Transgender is an umbrella that includes anything other than cisgender. I very clearly shared a few of the types that are not interested in transitioning along a binary view. Your insistence on returning to a binary view is very concerning to me, because the typical experience of a trans person in a conversation with someone that returns to binary views as if they are the default is an attempt at erasure or invalidation. Experiencing a binary reality for oneself and insisting that it is the only way you understand the entire topic are two very different things.

You are correct that I do not believe that there is much (if any) connection between sex and gender. The more I learn about the variety of gender experiences and the complexities of sex characteristics, the less I see evidence that they are related beyond social expectations. From a scientific standpoint, assuming the relation of sex and gender is just bad science, since even gravity must be proven beyond just seeing it everywhere. From a social standpoint, it is also hurtful. Talking about the two as intertwined assumes there is proof to support it and puts the burden on trans people to prove their experiences deserve to be recognized.


Yes I was just answering the topic as I saw it, and not trying to define gender or sex (indeed I was using the same one as you probably). My reasoning is that a wide audience will only have so much in common ground for a question like this. And since the majority of that audience do consider themselves to be in those binary concepts it makes it easier to explain by using those terms. So I wasn't trying to be prescriptive by any stretch of my imagination, but rather exploring some how people can experience of feeling of gender. I never said it was the only way to feel gender, or that everyone can use that method to experience how other people experience gender. As you say its very diverse, likewise in that regard it seems unfair to say my experiences are wrong, and wrong to assert deliberate intimidation. But I get it's an emotional subject and I am not an easy person to make head or tail from (no pun intended). My writing style is a little hard to digest even for me at times. But rest assured I'm not being prescriptive about it and rather instead just exploring mechanisms that can address the topic in some way. Ways that work for me. I think it's rare that any one way will address a whole topic as big as this entirely with any simple prescription of methodology, which is why I never used language to describe it as prescriptive or authoritative.

Half the problem might be I start from the scientific objective information and then add the experiential that then together exists as the framework of my understanding which then I can apply to others experiences and thoughts. I just find it's a more effective approach to get results faster. As a result, I prefer to focus on the science because I find it more meaningful to me, and therefore interesting. But I don't assert those things as the limits of truth on the matter, its just how I think about it.

Knight ~ introverted extropian, mechatronic neurothealogizing, technogaian buddhist. Likes integration, visualization, elucidation and transformation.
Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med ~ Dis
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
Last edit: 3 years 5 months ago by Adder.
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3 years 5 months ago #355609 by
Replied by on topic What is it like to feel gender?
And honestly, that's exactly why I see your behavior as threatening a culture of inclusivity.

Your very first post makes clear that you do not approve of trans individuals who wish to transition before adulthood.

Your second makes clear you see trans people fighting for a space to pee without getting physically attacked for it as "stamp[ing] their feet."

You want to fall back on "how you understand things" and a "scientific approach," but you repeatedly asserted that the binary is scientific (it's not) and that male and female bodies have differences that are only acceptably "scientific" to people who consistently target trans individuals.

Your last message was very nicely worded, and I may have believed it if I had been unable to reference your previous posts. I went back wondering how I misread them, and I found instead that the way you present yourself here is an attempt at an excuse for knowing the damage you might cause and going forward with it anyway. Before, I was going to try to educate you on intersex experiences and how you may have misunderstood biological sex, but in reading your previous writing, you are right. You already understand it, and yet you chose to exclude and contribute to harming others' understanding. I don't think I can continue this conversation further.

Rugadd, this is the best I can do, under these circumstances. I don't know how many more times I can be expected to keep an open mind while this is allowed to go on, as each of the times I have written, I have followed the same process. I would love to believe Adder has pure intentions, but he has repeatedly proven to me he does not. I cannot educate someone who already knows the information in question, and I can't keep putting myself in a position where he is allowed to hurt me "because I'm the only one." You got a trans kid? Ask them/him to help you spot the microaggressions. They're plentiful.

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3 years 5 months ago - 3 years 5 months ago #355626 by Adder

Eqin Ilis wrote: Your very first post makes clear that you do not approve of trans individuals who wish to transition before adulthood.


I disagree. I said I wasn't going to comment on it, and that my comments were in regards to adults.
Avoiding something is not saying you disagree with it. Indeed the reason I stated that sentence was exactly for this reason, for the reason that my post's content could be taken to mean that very thing... but that those other aspects of the discussion were not included in my comment;

"For clarity to context of the above, me personally, I think gender for an adult is up to them! I'm not touching the kids though, that issue speaks to deeper science which would then go to inform a deeper debate about the definitions, which I find beyond the scope of this thread or my approach in this post."


Eqin Ilis wrote: Your second makes clear you see trans people fighting for a space to pee without getting physically attacked for it as "stamp[ing] their feet."


I was taking a different approach to explain a contemporary problem. How you define the problem might speak to how you interpret the discussion perhaps, but my approach was not saying that the problem was transgender people wanting a safe place to pee, but rather that systems should be (and perhaps originally were) designed for functions and then they became divorced from them as part of a culture (in this case sex and old fashioned models of gender). The stamping feet reference is to whomever clings to the inappropriate usage, in my case the old paradigms of mens and womens. I've seen men complain about women in a mens bathroom and vice versa, which is probably why transgender use caused confusion among some.


Eqin Ilis wrote: You want to fall back on "how you understand things" and a "scientific approach," but you repeatedly asserted that the binary is scientific (it's not) and that male and female bodies have differences that are only acceptably "scientific" to people who consistently target trans individuals.

Your last message was very nicely worded, and I may have believed it if I had been unable to reference your previous posts. I went back wondering how I misread them, and I found instead that the way you present yourself here is an attempt at an excuse for knowing the damage you might cause and going forward with it anyway. Before, I was going to try to educate you on intersex experiences and how you may have misunderstood biological sex, but in reading your previous writing, you are right. You already understand it, and yet you chose to exclude and contribute to harming others' understanding. I don't think I can continue this conversation further.


That's ok, hey I want to be wrong! Its how I learn (and why I’m here). So if you have any actual wrongdoing or 'microaggressions' by me to justify your feelings towards me, then please do post. Or not, its ok with me.

But yea I think your misinterpreting what I've wrote. Which (as I've said) is understandable given my writing style, and the topic, and the habit of people to naturally assume things about others and judge them based on those rather than having an open mind. The downside of emotional topics is that it tends to cloud an open mind with subjective bias. But that goes both ways, me included, so having an open mind about being wrong is important too.

To your points.... I do think most everyone accepts the sexual poles exist as, well poles!? Poles have a space between two points, and male and female sex tends to have well defined and accepted sexual differentiation and expression of the relevant chromosomes. That is not to assert that it can only be full and complete expression of them which denotes association or being of either pole, or indeed that mixed expression cannot create intersex conditions.
I never said that gender was limited to poles either, and as I’ve gone to lengths to explain didn’t assert that it had to be related to sex, but because rather that it often was and could be, that it was useful for this particular topic as a way to feel gender. But as you point out and I agree, gender is hugely diverse so it in no way was meant to suggest it was the only way to feel gender or even a way to feel all genders.
So yea, there is topics which are triggers which I touched on, but not trying to trigger. To me this is the difference between a support group and protected discussion group. I don't mind if its either, there should be no stigma associated with a support group, I just think they do the same thing but functional differently to achieve it differently which makes it more suitable for different audiences.

Knight ~ introverted extropian, mechatronic neurothealogizing, technogaian buddhist. Likes integration, visualization, elucidation and transformation.
Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med ~ Dis
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
Last edit: 3 years 5 months ago by Adder. Reason: formating
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3 years 5 months ago #355627 by
Replied by on topic What is it like to feel gender?
Impact matters more than intent. You win. I'm out. Enjoy making this space feel threatening to others with your "learning through debate." Consider another approach to learning if you actually wish to be perceived as compassionate.

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3 years 5 months ago #355642 by Adder
Nah, I'm not debating you. I'm just explaining what my posts meant. That you disagree with what I meant when I wrote them just means either you read it wrong or I explained it wrong AFAIK, and I've already admitted I'm not the clearest of reads. Perhaps the topics in Intersectional shouldn't be so open to analytical thinking.

Knight ~ introverted extropian, mechatronic neurothealogizing, technogaian buddhist. Likes integration, visualization, elucidation and transformation.
Jou ~ Deg ~ Vlo ~ Sem ~ Mod ~ Med ~ Dis
TM: Grand Master Mark Anjuu
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3 years 5 months ago #355645 by rugadd
If the cup is full, don't pour anything else into it.

rugadd
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3 years 5 months ago #355646 by Rosalyn J
Hiya,

This feels more like a debate between two people then a discussion.

In this space, there is to be NO DEBATE. Pursuant to the rules that govern this space. It's clear neither of you will give an inch.

I suggest we move on.

If not, I will be forced to revoke access to IT for a time.

Yes, unfair
Yes, but this is a discussion between two people, Roz.
Yes, all the other things you will say.

The rules say it is not a debate forum.

If you see or feel yourself getting into a debate STOP

Ok?

I will make my decission when I get home from work

Pax Per Ministerium
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3 years 5 months ago - 3 years 5 months ago #355650 by OB1Shinobi
Before the thread gets locked id like to reiterate what I have said.
1) i have no idea what to say to women about how they can feel their femininity. I honestly would be pretty interested in hearing the voices of the few women that we have here speaking about what makes them feel feminine. But its not my place to speak on that. I am speaking only to the males. In particular, the young males.
2) if you are a male and you dont know what it feels like to experience your masculinity, do wtf im telling you: learn to fight. Involve yourself in a training regimen and get physically fit. Do something that is dangerous. Go step into something youre not sure you can control. And when you find a girl who likes you dont be a two-pump chump. Give the best of yourself and make sure that she goes first. Dedicate yourself to a skill/ability that takes years to master. Stick with it.

Im not going to argue with anybody about any of this. The question was asked “What is it like to feel gender?” As far as i have noticed, i am the only one who has actually given an answer to that question. I explained the things which resulted in me feeling my own masculinity. You can all be mad at me. IDGAF. Other people may offer other answers. I am not denying the validity of anyone else’s answers. I am simply telling you what has been true in my life. And it is true. There is truth in everything that I have said, whether you like it or not.


DAMN- chiming in on the trans debate, there is no way in hell that a minor should be allowed to have sex/genital changing surgery and hormone “therapy” any more than they should be allowed to have breast implants or to take steroids. Sorry/not sorry if that hurts your feelings.

People are complicated.
Last edit: 3 years 5 months ago by OB1Shinobi.

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3 years 5 months ago #355651 by Rosalyn J
Hey Ob1 I've been given different info on the last part of your post suggesting that hormone replacement therapy might be lifesaving because when individuals who identify as such are able to see what they identify with actually look back at them in the mirror it helps.

Disclaimer, I don't identify as trans and I will defer to someone who does if I've got the info incorrect.

Pax Per Ministerium
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3 years 5 months ago - 3 years 5 months ago #355652 by OB1Shinobi
https://www.psypost.org/2017/12/many-transgender-kids-grow-stay-trans-50499

Adults have every right to do whatever they want with and to their bodies but lets not pretend that children are not children. Hormone therapy is a big deal. As a parent, you can love a trans child and be supportive of them even if you dont allow them to pump themselves full of hormones which change them, irrevocably.

People are complicated.
Last edit: 3 years 5 months ago by OB1Shinobi.

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