Internet Hate

Alluvius wrote:

Our modern society (especially in the US and UK...and the middle east) is very sexually repressed. We are trained from a very young age, typically 3 or 4 to see shame in gender. We are taught by our parents, our friends, our families, and society in general to seek to defy nature by covering our bodies. We are taught that our bodies are shameful and embarrassing. And that is what causes psychological problems. Intolerance breeds only intolerance.

Well put!

All too often I hear people going on about their rights and such. I have studied a lot of law over the years and don't remember reading much about "rights." That being said, I feel that one of the biggest causes of a lot of conflict is the individuals lack of desire to "understand" or "accept" differences. Society as a whole is selfish in it's wants and what it thinks should be.

If we behave in a manner where we put others first and worry less about what it is we think we want then I feel a lot of the conflict would disolve.

Just a thought...

You are probably correct in your assessment, Wescli. I would also like to point out that, in my experience, I have encountered an abundance of people who seem to believe that their wants and their rights are the same thing. While it would be fantastic if that were true, we have an absolutely huge amount of wants and an extremely limited list of rights. We seem to forget that we have the rights to life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness. But that our desire to not be exposed to certain things (public nudity, second hand smoke, etc...) are not pursuant to these rights; although I know many people who would argue otherwise. As you said, we are a selfish society, which is to say we are self-centered, centered on self. Which translates on an individual level to: my self is all that matters to me. (If you doubt this, go drive on a main thoroughfare during rush hour traffic...not a lot of thinking of others going on there.)

The silver-lining of this cloud to me though, is that as individuals, we can change. And if enough individuals change, society changes. All social change throughout history has come about as an accumulated effort of individuals. Sometimes like minds get together and get impatient and start a revolutionary war or two, but it still began as a conscious effort on the part of individuals to change themselves.

ren wrote: Changing rooms are public places where people can be legally naked. crowded restaurants are public places where people cannot smoke. Pavements cannot be legally driven on. people cannot be legally killed.

All of the above are true. Add one to that list though. Men cannot legally enter a women's locker room in most US States (Disorderly Conduct laws). Does it not also stand to reason that someone with a male body but a female brain cannot legally enter a women's locker room either? But because of their female brain or perhaps feminine features they can not enter a men's locker room even though the anatomy is the same as their own? In that case there should be a third restroom for individuals that are neither strictly male or strictly female.

ren wrote: It's not a "men can drive on the men's roads" or "women can only smoke in women's restaurants".

No it is not...but perhaps it would be if men and women walked around naked all day. How many accidents could it cause if guys are driving down the highway and there is a very attractive nude woman driving down the street on a motorcycle? I'm thinking 100 car pile-up but I could be underestimating it a little.

ren wrote: I put it to you that those people are intolerant of human nature. Even suggesting simply being naked in presence of a child is sexually motivated.

Yes they are but that is because human nature gives them no thoughts to the contrary. A study done through Ohio State University showed that the average number of times a man thinks about sex is 19 times a day while women think about it an average of 10 times a day. It does vary based on the individual but this study showed that while some men thought about it as little as once a day, other men thought about it as many as 388 times a day. I wouldn't want a daughter of mine (if I had one, of course) to be standing in front of a nude version of the latter. If you had an attractive wife, would you want other people to be staring at her completely nude all the time. For some people, it happens too often even when they are wearing clothes.

ren wrote: Imagine this another way...

I don't want to see women on pavements or crowded restaurants. Therefore they should all wear a burka.

And there are countries where they do that. I have a very large Muslim community near me and I see women wearing them all the time. They do not force their beliefs on other women here (at least not that I have ever seen) but they do for their own families. The example you used is exactly what I am against though. Forcing your views on everyone around you whether they like it or not.

I do get what you are trying to say Ren but if you do what you want without regard to other's morals then you can not be upset when others begin imposing their morals on you in the way you have been imposing yours on them. It is counter-productive to what the transgender community is trying to accomplish. If a transgender person imposes their morals on everyone else, those people are more likely to begin imposing their morals of traditional men and women on transgender individuals.

In my opinion nudity is great, but not all people follow the same religion or moral compass. Some people do find it disturbing and some children are incredibly shy or easily spooked. Others don't care one way or the other. But because it's a woman's dressing room I don't think it's too much to ask the lady in question to watch out for the kiddies. I think most people try to accommodate each other so why is it a problem here?

No it is not...but perhaps it would be if men and women walked around naked all day. How many accidents could it cause if guys are driving down the highway and there is a very attractive nude woman driving down the street on a motorcycle? I'm thinking 100 car pile-up but I could be underestimating it a little.

I've been to such places (no naked people on motorcycles though, that's just crazy) and did not witness an accident. there were also morbidly obese old guys. they didnt seem to cause accidents or aneurysms in children either.

Yes they are but that is because human nature gives them no thoughts to the contrary. A study done through Ohio State University showed that the average number of times a man thinks about sex is 19 times a day while women think about it an average of 10 times a day. It does vary based on the individual but this study showed that while some men thought about it as little as once a day, other men thought about it as many as 388 times a day. I wouldn't want a daughter of mine (if I had one, of course) to be standing in front of a nude version of the latter. If you had an attractive wife, would you want other people to be staring at her completely nude all the time. For some people, it happens too often even when they are wearing clothes.

those people need to get a grip. I have an attractive missus, and people stare every now and then. When she wears clothes. I also happen to be a pretty wild heterosexual man and will like women whether they wear clothes or not. But suggesting that being naked in a changing room where there are children is sexually motivated is going too far. I'd sue for libel. I don't believe men think more about sex when they're naked than when they're clothed. I also do not believe perverts or pedos would get naked in this type of instance as they would totally get busted.

And there are countries where they do that. I have a very large Muslim community near me and I see women wearing them all the time. They do not force their beliefs on other women here (at least not that I have ever seen) but they do for their own families. The example you used is exactly what I am against though. Forcing your views on everyone around you whether they like it or not.

I do not force women to change with or separately from me. Personally I'm only interested in the social aspect.

I do get what you are trying to say Ren but if you do what you want without regard to other's morals then you can not be upset when others begin imposing their morals on you in the way you have been imposing yours on them.

I do not impose anything on anyone. I tolerate. I can change alongside gay men. I don't understand why I couldn't or shouldn't along women.

If a transgender person imposes their morals on everyone else, those people are more likely to begin imposing their morals of traditional men and women on transgender individuals.

to set the record straight I do not think transgenders should get special treatment. If you live in a sexually repressed society where adults may not be in contact with children unless they're clothed or where they cannot be in contact with people of the opposite sex because they could have thoughts of a sexual nature that they'd have anyway, then indeed I agree all males should remain with males only and all females should remain with all females only. What I am saying is that ideally, we should be able to understand that it really doesnt matter, and in the process get a perspective on gender other than the one offered by TV. I'm at a stage where I wonder if my son's generation will be able to have a hard on if it's not silicone-filled and strapped in a push-up.

I feel like I'm spamming the Latest Posts here, but even among the community, I don't see anyone posting the answer I'm going to posit, so I'm'ma go ahead and do it anyway.

My younger brother from about... 6 or so, to his death at 21, exactly a year ago today, was transgendered, physically a woman. And choosing to live in American states where that's looked down on, the Bible Belt and Deep South, inevitably he ran into problems like this semi-regularly.

After a decade and a half, my conclusion is that in the US, situations like this don't have a correct and incorrect answer. The women in the changing room are entitled not to have what they perceive, and reasonably so, as a man in their room. And the individual what done caused the ruckus is entitled to use the changing room she identifies with- that's legal, even when she has male anatomy. Clearly, there was going to be friction between these equally valid liberties. It sucks, and I've had to give statements on a lot of police reports confirming that my brother wasn't trying to get group sex going on (happened about four times, actually), and it makes everyone unhappy and uncomfortable, but it's a bump in the road that's very challenging to iron out.

Part of that is because, as other posts have said, the US is a pretty sexually repressed place in a lot of ways in the name of decency, and for a variety of actual reasons. And I'm not going to put on my fake saint's hat either- TG brother or not, if I was in a men's locker room and what looked for all the world like a naked woman was in there with me, I wouldn't be very comfortable changing in front of a stranger of the opposite sex, and having it later come to light that she was a transgendered male doesn't lessen that my initial reaction is a lot of apprehension and some anxiety.

I do think the way she handled herself in this changing room was a problem. But I also think that she had a right to be there. If she was just changing the same way everyone else was, I feel that would be acceptable. Turn your back to everyone and get dressed. As long as you aren't making a spectacle of yourself, nobody should even notice unless they're going around looking at everyone else changing, in which case they are wrong. I come across this problem all the time. When I am in public, I get yelled at in the women's restroom but I do not pass well enough to use the men's restroom. I usually just wait until I am somewhere with a family restroom, but if I must use a bathroom I use the women's restroom and make sure to talk to people so they can hear that my voice is higher than a male voice. Once I have started testosterone therapy I plan to use a male restroom because that is how I identify and that is where I will be safest since I will be passing more. For this woman, it would have been extremely dangerous to walk into a men's changing room dressed as a woman. Being in the woman's locker room was the most appropriate choice. Lounging around naked was not. The real issue is not that she was in that locker room, it was that she was conducting herself in a way that other women were not conducting themselves.