Have you ever been ashamed of your race?

1. What is shame to you?
2. Have you ever been ashamed of your race?
3. Why?


My answers:

1. To me, shame is an extreme mixture of disappointment and disgust in something. People can be ashamed tangible things (notably people and their actions) and intangible thoughts (like radical Islam, Jediism, racism, discrimination, etc.)

2. I have felt ashamed of my race. I'm Chinese & Hawaiian.

I feel ashamed of the Chinese race, at times, because of its history of brutal sexism (shackling and shrinking women's feat, comfort women, and "cult domesticity"), incredible violence (believe it or not, but Mao Zedong killed more Chinese people than Adolf Hitler killed Jews!), and obsession with materialism (the old stereotype that "Chinese like money!")

I feel ashamed of my Hawaiian race, at times, because of its history of primitiveness/underdevelopment (feudalism and monarchies all the way till the beginning of the 20th century!), weaknesses to invaders (our ancestors were basically the "Native Americans of Hawaii"), and unwillingness to modernize (because even to this day, Hawaiian culture is taught to children in a way that promotes resistance to Western expansion - seems to me like "Middle East of Hawaii")


3. To be honest, I'm not completely sure why I feel ashamed of my races, at time. On one hand, I tell myself I should not feel ashamed, since those were the actions of distant people of the past and I took no part in their shameful acts; I shouldn't blame myself for something I didn't do, even though I'm (distantly) related to it.

Also, it's fair to say that every race has done something bad in the past, so feeling ashamed of your race would be like feeling ashamed of the human race in general.

But on the other hand, I do feel ashamed, because I perpetuate my races simply by living, influencing others, and reproducing one day.

Thoughts?

1) I find shame to be something of a combination of disappointment and embarrassment.

2/3) I have never been ashamed of my race, because my race is simply a category that I fall into. Perhaps a large number of people of my race may commit a bad deed. But it is the individuals who should be judged, not the race. And we are not responsible for people of the same race as us. If they do something wrong it should be no more disappointing than if someone of a different race does something wrong. We can feel disappointment or sadness at their actions, but shame implies something more personal, a sense that you yourself have done something wrong by association...we should not have to feel like that.

1. Shame to me means feeling negative emotions like humiliation for some kind of wrong behavior.

2. No.

3. I am thoroughly disgusted with the history of the Caucasian race, a race of extreme oppression. The Christian church came bringing its patriarchy and brought a history of violence (Crusades, Inquisition, Religious Intolerance), that to this day still exists.

Yet I realize that every ethnicity has its problem. Every ethnicity has caused extreme atrocities that violate the sanctity of life. Hitler, the Khmer Rouge, etc. It does not matter, the history of homo sapiens is one of extreme violence. We do not even have to look deep into our past, it is prevalent within our life.

I can point look at white people did trying to bring "civilization" to other cultures. White people in the last century sterilized Native Americans, brutalized them, look at the segregation from the '50s or the slavery. God knows what else that has happened in "North American" white "culture." I believe Arabs enslaved black people to. Look at the constant warring between various nations and what they would do.

But the reason why I feel no shame is because, they aren't me. Yes, some of these people were my ancestors, but I am not responsible for them. I should not apologize for what they did. It is not my fault. What matters is today, now. What matters I am not racist, I don't take racists actions towards others and when I have children I teach them that way too. So through me a culture of tolerance starts.

But the truth is racism will always be prevalent, I feel & think, it's a tribal feeling of them versus us. It is easy for the monster in our brain to demonize the other side, to blame others. I had a discussion with this one girl who told me how she has a friend from Germany who is black who moved to the USA for work. Well interesting enough, black people here in America are racists while black people in Germany are not. Black people will hate you because you are white, I've had this unfortunate experience. I've had a lot of black people I've been surrounded with prove ever bad stereotype but I've been fortunate to meet a few nice black people too. Yet I judge each person for who they are and not their skin. There are good black and bad blacks, good whites and bad whites, good arabs and bad arabs. We all have our extremists. There are some wonderful Christian people and some insane Christian people.

Never gave thoughts as to what race i belong to. Culture, yes, but race? What a pile of non-sense.

SeanChing wrote: 2. I have felt ashamed of my race. I'm Chinese & Hawaiian.

Thoughts?

Things like races, genetics, natal charts, cultures, heritage, etc are best viewed merely as starting points. They are the conditions into which you entered this life. Yes, they have their own sordid histories, because they consist of people.

But any true alchemist (i.e. student of self-transformation) knows that conditions, biases, assumptions, opinions, etc can be changed, and will be changed in the process of distilling our personalities down to ever more accurate reflections of the Living Force that dwells within us all.

The essence of your soul is what matters. Have you killed millions of people? No. Have you kept women in a state of cultural bondage? I'm assuming not. Are you unwilling to modernize? Obviously not, since you are a member of a Jedi Order.

As for the primitiveness of the Hawaiian race, what are your impressions of Huna? Or the various Chinese spiritual systems?

ren wrote: Never gave thoughts as to what race i belong to. Culture, yes, but race? What a pile of non-sense.

I have given some thought over the years to my race, but have never felt defined by it, other than by my obvious skin color, facial features, light eyes, etc. But those don't make me good or bad. And the history of my race is certainly not a source of personal shame for me. Now granted, the history of my race is different from SeanChing's. But ren's experience and my own do illustrate that it is possible to be dissociated from racial identity.

As a side note, though: ren, would you not agree that culture and race often develop hand in hand, at least in places not like Britain or America where there is no melting pot effect?

Cultures are certainly very different at times. I spent almost two months in Cambodia and while there are some parts that are "modern" there was an entire different culture and style of living than here in America. In some ways I was reminded of how they lived like a tribe, and how kids would be running around till it was dark out and almost dinner time in safety. It reminded me of the stories my mother told me of her childhood growing up.

Even though my boyfriend was brought over from Cambodia when he was only 3, even then, there is a "culture," certain expectations, and traditions he follows with his family. Yes America is a melting pot, but there are still distinct cultures within it.

Shame: I'm with V-Tog

Been ashamed of my race? No, not of my race or my culture. Individuals on the other hand- yes.

Why? Well that implies that I have some deep relationship with my race. I don't do stereotyping, because the moment you do you are looking at everything one dimensional. Take a look at history in terms of slavery. Specifically with American Slavery. Well we could say that we are all up in arms that Americans enslaved the Africans. But then you begin looking over the situation with a comb and you find that Africans sold their own people. Then you start looking at other cultures of today and you find Human trafficking which is modern day slavery. It's a species thing, not a white, black, Asian, etc thing. Which means it boils down to individual choice- because obviously not everyone participates in human trafficking.

Every culture has war within it. White people just happen to be the most prominent color we see. But the problems are everywhere.

Now in regards to people that I know, if I have a certain expectation of them and they violate it, then sure I don't have a problem saying I am ashamed of them.

1. only a personal feeling. I try not to judge others as much as possible. What V said sounds good so I'd say its a mix of disappointment in myself and embarresment for some sort failure on my part.

2. As per above (1), no.

3. As per above (1), no.

Having shame about ones group could be just the fear that others will prejudice against you (not you personally Sean) but; in any state of conflicted relations between different groups the actions of any one individual can interfere with the overall progress. It seems human nature to easily fear something foreign and which might be dangerous, so any outsiders setting a bad example tends to be adopted into the argument in that conflicted relationship. Therefore behaviour which you yourself might find shameful represents something which slows or reverses progress in some form of conflicted relationship between groups. I'd imagine this can cause disappointment in other stakeholders, even anger, but as mentioned I try not to judge unless that person is under established and mutually agreed authority of me.

Sorry if that doesnt make any sense, I havent had my morning coffee yet :S

OK SO---I will note that I have consulted no references for this topic. If the semantic differences that I describe below are not found in the dictionary, well, that is my own mistake. But, this is how I construct the definitions...

I define shame as regret for something that is intrinsic to you or that you are a part of. I distinguish it from "guilt," which is something that in my eyes implies personal responsibility -- a choice that some one has committed.


I have felt "white liberal guilt" for being part of a group of people who have until 50 years ago legally and systematically discriminated against people who are not white. Obviously I have not personally done anything wrong, but racism is still around and "white" is still a privileged race, just like "American" and "European" are privileged cultures, traditionally seen as "white." And, I would add, still are privileged cultures by all measures of privilege. Sometimes I feel shame that I have the skin color I do because I do not want to associate myself with the choices that my ancestors made, sometimes I feel guilty for the privilege that I have as a first-world citizen because I know how that privilege was acquired and I am aware how much the first world exploits the peripheral countries to maintain its status.

(N.B. race is constructed in the minds of people; as some of you doubtlessly know, there is no such thing as "race" genetically).

If we are going to discard feelings of shame for being part of a race, then should we not, as Jerry Springer mentioned, discard feelings of pride for being part of a particular race or culture? He suggested that we ought to feel pride for something that we chose to become, rather than something that we were born with. I don't think that he is suggesting we stop enjoying all the wonderful parts of our heritage, but, I think that he makes a good point.