Is Trumps Boarder Wall Antithetical To Jedi Doctrine?

If it helps reduce illegal US armament exports to violent criminal organisations south of the border, a far more pressing issue than mexican exports of cleaning ladies and gardeners, I'm all for that wall.

no. and stop it.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ezAJeaCySV4

ZealotX wrote:

KerouacsGhost wrote:

Malicious wrote: I have no problem with anyone's race . To me I don't see someone's race but how they are as a person .....

To be colorblind or not to "see someones race" is a way of not seeing them at all. I'm sure they know what race they are or are assigned/assumed to be. You not seeing it is just another way of you not acknowledging their existence.

This is something most well meaning white people seem to get wrong. I understand what they're trying to say but, speaking for millions of people of color, I can tell you with a very high degree of certainty, that people of color want you to see their color.

i think that is a misunderstanding. It's not the denial of race, it's the denial of the stereotypes - expressly to make way for having that more real connection between people.

Adder wrote:

ZealotX wrote:

KerouacsGhost wrote:

Malicious wrote: I have no problem with anyone's race . To me I don't see someone's race but how they are as a person .....

To be colorblind or not to "see someones race" is a way of not seeing them at all. I'm sure they know what race they are or are assigned/assumed to be. You not seeing it is just another way of you not acknowledging their existence.

This is something most well meaning white people seem to get wrong. I understand what they're trying to say but, speaking for millions of people of color, I can tell you with a very high degree of certainty, that people of color want you to see their color.

i think that is a misunderstanding. It's not the denial of race, it's the denial of the stereotypes - expressly to make way for having that more real connection between people.

Interesting. When black people think of "black" we don't think of a stereotype. A stereotype is something additional to being a certain color/race. Take the stereotype away, not the color. Normally, stereotypes don't even need to be mentioned. If they are it could come off the wrong way as well.

example:
"I don't see your blond hair."

Of course you see someone's hair color. Maybe they even put effort into having it that color. If you want them to know that you don't also, as in additionally, view them as "dumb", you don't have to call attention to the stereotype. You could even say "hey, I like your hair color."

If the stereotype of black people is so strong that you don't even want to say black because you think of the stereotype... then that's really bad. Not to mention depressing. But it reminds me of how people some people remark about how articulate a certain black person is. It is as if to say that most other black people aren't as articulate as you. What's wrong with them?

If you don't see "stereotypes" then just say "I don't see stereotypes". If you stay this to a black person though, be ready to explain yourself because it could edge on sounding offensive real quick. If you say to a Chinese person "I don't think of eating cats when I see you"... doesn't that sound like you have firmly connected Chinese people with eating cats? If you don't then there's no need to mention it at all. If you meet a Chinese person you can say, "oh hey, You're Chinese. That's cool. What part of China are you from?"

Attributes and characteristics can be a positive thing and lead to positive discussions. All you have to do is think about things you LIKE about that group of people. You still have to be careful. You don't want to tell every black guy you see how much you like basketball. That assumes they like basketball just because they're black. But maybe you just mean that you enjoy watching black people play basketball and that it seems like its something they're really good at. Again, though. Just think about positive things about that group or culture. If you can't say anything positive then saying "I don't see color" sounds like you can't think of anything positive to say so let's just not even talk about it or even mention the presence of melanin in your skin. Like... yuck. But if that's not how you feel then don't be afraid of it.

"Oh you're Italian. I really love Italian food."
"Oh you sound like you might be from the Caribbean. I'd love to go there on vacation."
but you wouldn't say "Oh you're black. I love watermelon too." That's not actually a thing. Chicken, might be. But not watermelon."
And I don't say (and this is strictly for educational purposes lol) "Oh you're white. I really love mayo. Sorry about the small....".

If you don't see stereotypes it shouldn't be too hard to come up with positive things to say about people. And from there you can probably find some common ground, something you both enjoy. It's the same as meeting anyone. It's just that you're also noticing that person's race, which means you're not ignoring it.

things you can say...
"I don't define people by their race or ethnicity. People are much more than that" (That's cool. plus you might get extra points)
"Stereotypes are funny but they're so exaggerated."
"I love every race. I think everyone is beautiful and every culture contributes to society"
"we wouldn't be who we are as a nation without every race working together"
"I just don't see the need to judge people based on the color of their skin"
if "I don't see color" is the short version of the above statement... then go with the long version. Trust me.

People want to be acknowledged, not assimilated. Differences matter, but they don't have to be negatives. Flowers come in different colors too. It would be sad if you were color blind and couldn't see it. You may not be trying to say this, but I'm telling how how must black people will interpret it. So unless you want to explain what you mean, I would just put it a different way.

So zealot, do you consider "black" to be a stereotype or not a stereotype?

I think if someone says they dont see color that is the purest form of stereotype rejection.

I'm not caught up on this thread, but to answer the OP: even if you disregard the human element and reasoning and effects, it would be devastating to the local ecosystem by preventing non-flying migratory creatures from moving back and forth.

ZealotX wrote:

Adder wrote:

ZealotX wrote:

KerouacsGhost wrote:

Malicious wrote: I have no problem with anyone's race . To me I don't see someone's race but how they are as a person .....

To be colorblind or not to "see someones race" is a way of not seeing them at all. I'm sure they know what race they are or are assigned/assumed to be. You not seeing it is just another way of you not acknowledging their existence.

This is something most well meaning white people seem to get wrong. I understand what they're trying to say but, speaking for millions of people of color, I can tell you with a very high degree of certainty, that people of color want you to see their color.

i think that is a misunderstanding. It's not the denial of race, it's the denial of the stereotypes - expressly to make way for having that more real connection between people.

Interesting. When black people think of "black" we don't think of a stereotype. A stereotype is something additional to being a certain color/race. Take the stereotype away, not the color. Normally, stereotypes don't even need to be mentioned. If they are it could come off the wrong way as well.

I disagree on one hand and understand on the other. On one hand I think stereotypes are used by all people to all things until new information replaces it, sort of like a placeholder.
On the other hand, I think its normal for someone who is familiar with something to have a highly detailed and informed, more accurate, version of stereotype which doesn't compare to their other stereotypes of other things in its level of detail and accuracy.... and your name for it on this topic (how'd we get to race in this thread again?) seems to be 'black' - but its the same thing in function IMO which goes back to my first point about stereotypes and the saying being discussed and what it means.
Being people who are unfamiliar/less familiar are better served not to use the stereotype too much because its less accurate and more prone to being wrong and being misused (accidentally or on purpose). This concept being colour blind goes both ways (all ways), and is the foundation of the phrase not to see ones 'obvious physical feature' as defining them, whether it be skin colour, disability etc.

It's not about closing off, but rather creating space to be open. If someone wants to take it the wrong way for other reasons then that is on them, and quite frankly anyone can take offense at anything if they really want to, and beyond when being in the womb lol the world isn't here to coddle anyone to that extent! :silly:

As for the rest of your post, I agree, but much in the same way as above, understanding somethings meaning beyond one obvious interpretation is the same sort of thing... it's about not making assumptions informed by superficial analysis or argumentative habit ie stereotypes or bias etc. The use of stereotypes is just a 'reaction' and not really a formed response, but it can serve as a entry point to communication because it might be the most available common ground - provided both parties understand it for what it is and its inherent limitations. If you want to understand what a reaction represents then a dialog is required, and then intention and values often become both apparent and accurate. That is when the fur can really fly, or friendships made.

Fyxe wrote: So zealot, do you consider "black" to be a stereotype or not a stereotype?

I think if someone says they dont see color that is the purest form of stereotype rejection.

No. Is white a stereotype? No. Are there stereotypes associated with every race? Yes. That's the nature of stereotypes. Can you reject a stereotype by pretending you are not part of the group it's attached to? No. If there's a stereotype about Asians does that mean you should not call yourself Asian? No, that's dumb (imo). You have to be who you are. You can't let other people define you in a negative way. There's a stereotype that white men can't jump or that white people can't dance. Do you then reject being white to avoid these stereotypes? No. You laugh it off and don't give it any power!

You can even embrace that certain stereotypes are funny. They are, after all, exaggerations. But if the stereotype is that "black people steal" or something like that the problem is that when whites were openly making fun of black people with minstrel shows, blackface, and images of huge lips and black black skin, they weren't trying to be cute funny. It was mean funny. So if the jokes are coming from racists, that's a different level from far less harmful stereotypes like "black men have big ____".

If you don't think its true or funny then simply reject the individual stereotype by not using it and not giving it any power. But never does a stereotype not apply because you don't want to see that person as being that color that the stereotype is attached to. In this case you have given the stereotype ALL the power because you've given the stereotype priority and importance over the race it's attached to. That may not be the intent but how it sounds.

We all use stereotypes. We all laugh at them. Dave Chappelle made a career laughing at them. Pretending they don't exist is not the way. Because what happens is that people assume you probably use those things when they're not around and so you just don't want to be saying contradictory things depending on who you're talking to. But no, the whole "I don't see color" thing needs to die. It isn't widely understood or appreciated. It's just that very few black people care enough to try to correct this statement or call attention to someone for saying it. Most racists, we leave alone unless they are addressing us individually and directly. Otherwise, it's just not worth your time as your chances of actually changing that person's heart or mind is extremely low.

On one hand I think stereotypes are used by all people to all things until new information replaces it, sort of like a placeholder.

oh... you mean ignorance.

On the other hand, I think its normal for someone who is familiar with something to have a highly detailed and informed, more accurate, version of stereotype which doesn't compare to their other stereotypes of other things in its level of detail and accuracy.... and your name for it on this topic (how'd we get to race in this thread again?) seems to be 'black'

No... I'm quite sure I've only said the opposite. "Black" is not a stereotype. That's not how stereotypes work. A stereotype doesn't get to replace an entire race. Only racists think in absolutes like that. Anyone who is more familiar with black people knows there are different kinds of black people. Black people come in all shapes and sizes.

There are some stereotypes that get applied out of humor, some that get applied out of fear, some that get applied out of anger. I don't traffic in the latter two but I know they exist and I'm aware of the ones aimed at my race. Some of these stereotypes are used to create an air of assumption that black people shouldn't be hired. Why? Because the people advancing those stereotypes did not want to compete against black candidates which they suddenly found themselves doing.

But do you get how offensive it is to call people lazy who were previously forced to work by whips and chains and were forced to meet ridiculous quotas picking cotton from plants that had thorns? But suddenly they had to compete against free slaves so these stereotypes were used to try to give the ex-slaves a disadvantage. And these particular stereotypes evolved and got worse, to the point where criminals and their behavior was being used to represent all black people. At the same time, the thuggish type of cultures was popularized the same way that cowboy culture was. All cowboys weren't good. A lot of them were bandits and people who killed native Americans. But nobody fears that the white guy in the cowboy hat is about to take their land.

And honestly, just this weekend I was over my gf's and forgot to lock my car and someone (most likely white) when through it looking for drugs, probably assuming I was a dope boy because I have dreads and drive a Lexus. But I accept that as kind of an "occupational hazard". But that's different from assuming EVERY black man is a thug. That's progress, lol.

Stereotypes should only be funny. All others should be rejected. That's not going to stop people from "fitting" a more specific description. But at least if you're looking for neck/face tats, white t-shirt, saggy pants, etc. at least that's more specific than "black". And that shows progress in how you see black people. But don't take their color away just because you don't know enough about them to confine stereotypes to more specific descriptions. What about the black doctors, lawyers, engineers, architects, plumbers, real estate agents, etc? I know a lot of them and I know almost no one who is an actual thug. And because of the fact stereotypes can be used as weapons against black people, it is important that the positive black people should ALSO be representative of their race/color. This helps to BALANCE out the negative and attacks the core premises of racism.

If that doesn't make sense, imagine if you're watching the news and every black criminal is called "black" but every reference to a doctor or lawyer is never called black and never shown on camera. Could a person, who trusts the news, not get the impression that black people are all criminals? And you almost hardly even have to imagine this because it does happen a lot on the news and is a small part of what we sometimes refer to as institutional racism.

But fortunately, less people watch the news and more and more people just reject the assignment of criminality to black people as a stereotype. And that's cool. The less we fear each other the more we can cooperate and build a better future for all. Doing that doesn't mean not seeing people's color. It just means not being afraid of it and therefore not believing negative inquiries simply based on outward appearances.

The book has a cover and that cover probably has a color but there's just no need to judge the book by it.

ZealotX wrote:

Fyxe wrote: So zealot, do you consider "black" to be a stereotype or not a stereotype?

I think if someone says they dont see color that is the purest form of stereotype rejection.

No. Is white a stereotype? No. Are there stereotypes associated with every race? Yes. That's the nature of stereotypes. Can you reject a stereotype by pretending you are not part of the group it's attached to? No. If there's a stereotype about Asians does that mean you should not call yourself Asian? No, that's dumb (imo). You have to be who you are. You can't let other people define you in a negative way. There's a stereotype that white men can't jump or that white people can't dance. Do you then reject being white to avoid these stereotypes? No. You laugh it off and don't give it any power!

You can even embrace that certain stereotypes are funny. They are, after all, exaggerations. But if the stereotype is that "black people steal" or something like that the problem is that when whites were openly making fun of black people with minstrel shows, blackface, and images of huge lips and black black skin, they weren't trying to be cute funny. It was mean funny. So if the jokes are coming from racists, that's a different level from far less harmful stereotypes like "black men have big ____".

If you don't think its true or funny then simply reject the individual stereotype by not using it and not giving it any power. But never does a stereotype not apply because you don't want to see that person as being that color that the stereotype is attached to. In this case you have given the stereotype ALL the power because you've given the stereotype priority and importance over the race it's attached to. That may not be the intent but how it sounds.

We all use stereotypes. We all laugh at them. Dave Chappelle made a career laughing at them. Pretending they don't exist is not the way. Because what happens is that people assume you probably use those things when they're not around and so you just don't want to be saying contradictory things depending on who you're talking to. But no, the whole "I don't see color" thing needs to die. It isn't widely understood or appreciated. It's just that very few black people care enough to try to correct this statement or call attention to someone for saying it. Most racists, we leave alone unless they are addressing us individually and directly. Otherwise, it's just not worth your time as your chances of actually changing that person's heart or mind is extremely low.

This is very confusing. White can be just as much a stereotype as black can be. first you tell me its not and then you say every race has them. so which is it? I never said anything about denying your heritage so Im not even sure where you get that from. who is denying heritage and why is rejecting stereotype something you thing also denies heritage? They are two different things!!

You seem to want to have your cake and eat it as well. you want people to see you as black but you dont want poeple to see you as a stereotype. same goes for white people. I think it is you that is misunderstanding the term "I dont see color". It means we see people, as in human beings first, from there we can delve down into specifics. I dont see you as my black friend, just my friend,... who happens to be black. in this way I dont see your color first, I see it as an attribute of your humanness. thats what it means. You have it backwards.

It seems like you want to hold onto the special priveldges that being black gives you but not the history of what its possibly meant in past generations. thats not cool.

I understand your confusion.

Black is not a stereotype. There are stereotypes about black people.
White is not a stereotype. There are stereotypes about white people.
Rocker is not a stereotype. There are stereotypes about rockers.
There are stereotypes about teenagers, old people, lawyers, doctors, the military, nerds, homosexuals, etc.

But black means something OTHER THAN what the stereotypes suggest and exaggerate. The same is true of all other groups to which there are stereotypes that people can attach.

A person can all themselves a nerd without being a "stereotypical nerd". But if nerd only means, to you, what the stereotype suggests, then that's your limited view of nerds. It doesn't mean that you shouldn't use the word nerd ever. Not using the word gives the stereotype too much power.

If you call a white Caucasian instead of white do you think it makes a difference as far as stereotypes are concerned?

It doesn't.

Do you think people always know or care what you mean?

They don't.

you want people to see you as black but you dont want poeple to see you as a stereotype. same goes for white people.

um... yes. Because I can separate the two. Are you not able to? If I say... "oh the guy was white" in order to distinguish a person from the crowd, I'm not also saying he's got a small.....thing and he can't jump high or dance well and that he lacks rhythm. I'm just identifying him as a member of the "white race" inasmuch as it has been previously defined. If every time you say "black" you think of negative stereotypes then that's a problem that has nothing to do with the word "black" and everything to do with the "stereotypes" you AUTOMATICALLY apply to that term. And so then it comes off as though you're saying there's something wrong with being black. Especially, if you identify as "white". And if you do not identify as "white", that's your choice, but no one who hears "I don't see color" will be able to make this assumption. Because we don't agree with its premise or purpose.

It seems like you want to hold onto the special priveldges that being black gives you but not the history of what its possibly meant in past generations.

Interesting. What do YOU think it meant in "past generations"? And what "Special privileges" are you referring to?

I am still not sure what you are trying to say here with the "I dont see color" as something that is bad?

Are we not all humans? dont you want people to see you as human first?

If an irishman and an frenchman meet on the street both are white so there is no issue of color but one does not want the other to judge them based on their heritage. I see no diffence between that and black and white. "I dont see color" implies that race is not an issue. Just as "I dont see ethnic heritage". one cant see the difference between an irishman and a frenchman just by looking so why should we make this distinction between a black man and a white man.

Minorities today have all sorts of special priveledges and it seems to me that you want to be identified for this but not for the negative stereotype. I dont thik you can have both. If you dont want the stereotype then you cant have the positive effects as a default.

In fact i think your stance on the phrase that "I dont see color" shoujld be eliminated is actually propigating a stereotype. You are saying dont judge me on a stereotype but judge me on my blackness because that makes me better than you.

Fyxe wrote: I am still not sure what you are trying to say here with the "I dont see color" as something that is bad?

If you read my comments since the beginning of this, I have said from the beginning that this phrase if often misunderstood from what is intended and that it can come off as offensive. And I'm not talking about on the internet. I have real world examples; one where multiple black people told the same thing to the same white person. And the reason they corrected her was because they knew her so they knew that wasn't what she meant. Far more people simply never get that correction. I'm offering it here because love this community and want everyone to have better relationships of people of all colors, shapes, and sizes. But to do that you have to first recognize differences. After you recognize the difference you TREAT THEM THE SAME... as EQUALS.

Are we not all humans? don't you want people to see you as human first?

Yes. And humans come from different places and some have guy parts and some have girl parts. Some humans are parents and grand parents. And humans also have names. We call different humans by different names and labels to distinguish them from other humans. Every human is special. Every human deserves to be see for who they are. That's more than just a gender, a race, a sexual orientation. But if a person is proud of who they are, and who they are encompasses these things, then why wouldn't they want you to recognize these differences? You never seen a gay pride parade? Does it seem like they are embarrassed by it? Does it seem like they want to be defined by gay stereotypes? Don't confuse seeing with judging. You don't judge some as gay. Therefore, you don't judge someone as black. They're either gay or not. They're either black or not. It's not a judgement. What WOULD be a judgement is connecting that to something negative based on a stereotype. Please note that I offered alternative phrases to say the same thing without being misunderstood.

If an irishman and an frenchman meet on the street both are white so there is no issue of color but one does not want the other to judge them based on their heritage.

Um... do you not understand how you just proved my point? Why did you call one an Irishman and the other a frenchman? It's because you wanted me to know they were different from each other. You DISTINGUISHED one from the other. Otherwise the example would be nonsensical because I would have no way to decipher what the difference between them was. I assume they have different names. Should we do away with those too? Maybe one doesn't want to be judged based on other people named "Hussain". But the problem is not the name. The problem is the person who judges based on the name. Hussain shouldn't have to change his name or have people ignore his name just because they "don't see names". That's ridiculous. If you couldn't call me by my name I would think either you didn't know it or you didn't like it or thought something was wrong with it. But that's YOUR problem. Not mine. That's my name and I like it just fine. My name is not Hussain but if it was, that's how I'd feel. It's mine. Therefore, it's not for me to get over and reject. It's for you to get over and accept. Why would you judge a Frenchman for being French? That's your problem if you have a problem with that. And if I was French and someone didn't like French people then I wouldn't be friends with that person. It's not that complicated. And if you can't say that I'm French because you don't want to judge me... then that sounds like a judgment; it sounds like you have a problem with French people.

I see no diffence between that and black and white. "I dont see color" implies that race is not an issue. Just as "I dont see ethnic heritage". one cant see the difference between an irishman and a frenchman just by looking so why should we make this distinction between a black man and a white man.

The same way you just said "black and white" is the same way you should always be able to speak of black people and white people, like there is no difference in VALUE or QUALITY. The idea of "better than" comes from racists; not the people they are racist against. Saying someone is an Irishman doesn't mean you are saying you're better than him or that he's better than you. Distinctions (like names) underscore the fact that we are all different people. However, no one said that that different = wrong or inferior. So don't introduce that into the conversation and no one will think that every time you say black you're saying inferior. Because that's not what black means to us. So unless that's what black means to you then there should be no problem saying black.

There was a short time in my life when I said to myself, "I'm brown". Literally, I have brown skin. However, my people suffered as "black people". They took that exaggerated color and they wore it proudly. They had a shared experience that gave them their own meaning and pride. They survived under the oppression and against the odds. And rejecting that label is a bit like rejecting generations of people who looked like me and fought for their own freedom as well as mine. And so we fought to make it a positive "brand" in spite of the original intent of those who invented the whole concept and notion of race.

But hey... if you still feel funny about that then you can say "African American". Just don't say "Negro" or anything like that.

Minorities today have all sorts of special priveledges and it seems to me that you want to be identified for this but not for the negative stereotype. I dont thik you can have both. If you dont want the stereotype then you cant have the positive effects as a default.

what special privileges? If you don't feel comfortable giving public examples, then message me in private. I wont get mad at you. I want to know what you're talking about.

Fyxe wrote: In fact i think your stance on the phrase that "I dont see color" shoujld be eliminated is actually propigating a stereotype. You are saying dont judge me on a stereotype but judge me on my blackness because that makes me better than you.

No one introduced anything about any color being "better than" until you put it in that context. What about ANY color makes one inherently better than someone else? I personally do not know of anything. My blackness makes me different from you; not better. Why would you think that? Again... I do not see black as a stereotype. Do you think that every time I talk to my mom I think she's a stereotypical black woman? No. Of course not. She's black. But black people are not a monolith. Being black gives you a common shared history. But black people are about as different from each other as they are different from you. You have more in common with certain individual black people than they have to others. Just because black people have something in common doesn't mean that any commonalities with whites or Hispanics or Asians goes out the window. So it's not the word "black" that is the problem or that needs to change or go away. It's how you are thinking about that word that does. This has ALWAYS been the problem.

There are some black people who steal. There are also some white people who steal.
There are some black people who smoke crack. There are also some white people who smoke crack.
There are some black people who sell drugs. There are also some white people who sell drugs.
There are some black people who wear saggy pants and it looks ridiculous. There are also some white people who do the same and/or whites who wear extremely tight pants which also looks ridiculous (to me).
There are a lot of black people in jail. There are also a lot of white people in jail.

When people are racist they tend to take negative stereotypes and preach them like the gospel; using them as justifications and weapons of mass slander which can be destructive. In reality we should all just keep stereotypes in the context of what they actually are; exaggerations of reality, sometimes designed to injure. You need not invoke a stereotype simply saying the name of a group that has a stereotype attached.

From my point of view you have this whole idea exactly backwards. The term I dont see color is in reference to a particular thing. it is in the context of stereotype, not of racial standing. You are conflating those two. I dont go to a party with my friend and introduce him as my black friend, just my friend. and even if I had to describe my friend I would not use the term black. However if I had to depict characteristics of my friend from others in a crowd I would use the term black. I dont see color is a descriptor in lack of bias when it comes to stereotype. However My black friend over there, is a descriptor of my friend to help identify him from others. thats the difference.

By priveledged I mean things like the reparations they keep talking about and things like affirmative action.

As far as I’m concerned, white is just as racist as calling someone brown, black or yellow. I did not come from white-land nor do I speak white. In fact, the only parts of me that are white are my sclera and my teeth.

I am building a fence around my property to help keep out some of the local wildlife and create a boundary for my dogs. I guess some would consider that antithetical to Jedi doctrine. Or maybe I’m just a wild-life-ist. Or am I just an over controlling dictator to dogs and chickens?

I guess all the people that live in gated communities are… not Jedi worthy.
Fences are not bad or good. No more than a wall or a door. All they do is limit travel between two places, one side to the other. What should really be looked at is immigration policy. A giant, bureaucratic, over complicated broken system that is confusing and difficult to navigate where in its very design limits the number of people that are allowed in to the country legally.

I can’t help but notice, the Veteran used the color Green when addressing “I don’t see color”

I love it, Wes!