Is Trumps Boarder Wall Antithetical To Jedi Doctrine?

*raises hand to the teacher saying pick me * I have a question , if the boarder wall " is " antithetical to the Jedi doctrine what then ?

Malicious wrote: *raises hand to the teacher saying pick me * I have a question , if the boarder wall " is " antithetical to the Jedi doctrine what then ?

I don't fricking know Malicious.
Having just read ZeroStorm's post, I realize how silly this argument is.
Let's all just agree to disagree, be friends, and focus on why we are here. To be Jedi.

Don't get your nicker's in a twist I agree with you full heartedly but I was just wondering because I kinda made the post that led to this one and I don't want to be forced to leave . I really like it here and I know now I unintentionally *stired the pot * I think I might be on thin ice with a blow torce pointed at my feet .

I do apologise to everyone and anyone that I may have ruffled there feathers . I am sorry for the actions that I have taken and I will try not to do these type of things again . I will stay in my corner and read / post on my journal . I do have a tendency to accidentally rile people up especially if they have opposite views as I , and I need to fix that .

Don't you talk that way about my knickers! I like them twisty!

lol, it's all good Malicious, there is nothing wrong with having opposing viewpoints, and I do not think you offended anybody.
No need to be overly apologetic, or hide in your corner, you didn't do anything wrong, and you have been very civil in my opinion.

Honestly, if anyone has been rude, it was me a few days ago, I can get awfully arrogant and hateful, borderline contemptuous when I disagree with someone. I gotta be better about that.

Malicious wrote: Don't get your nicker's in a twist I agree with you full heartedly but I was just wondering because I kinda made the post that led to this one and I don't want to be forced to leave . I really like it here and I know now I unintentionally *stired the pot * I think I might be on thin ice with a blow torce pointed at my feet .

I do apologise to everyone and anyone that I may have ruffled there feathers . I am sorry for the actions that I have taken and I will try not to do these type of things again . I will stay in my corner and read / post on my journal . I do have a tendency to accidentally rile people up especially if they have opposite views as I , and I need to fix that .

I'm not sure I'm understanding you correctly malicious, but if you mean to say you are worried that by starting the topic about the border wall that led to this topic on the border wall has somehow "stired the pot" in a negative way, I don't think anyone feels that way. I didn't get that impression from any of the previous responses I've read and I certainly don't feel that you've done anything wrong.

Although I must say we definitely do not agree fullheartedly on many, if any, points around this issue. In fact, I find our differences so glaring that I literally have no idea where to start in responding to your many ideas about immigration.

That's fine.

We don't have to agree, but i also disagree on agreeing to agree to disagree. I do not feel that avoiding divisive issues breeds unity. Avoiding hard conversations about real suffering is a kind of caution that has more in common with cowardice than righteousness.

There really are men women and children fleeing violence in Southern and Central America and Mexico who really are going to do whatever it takes to escape that violence with their lives and their families. The language people use which labels migrants as criminal invaders really does have real world consequences. Murderous consequences and letting it slide is simply a non option.




Q : In this manifesto several anti-immigrant sentiments are expressed, including hate speech against migrants, white supremacist rhetoric, and calls for all non-European immigrants in Europe who are claimed to be "invading his land" to be removed.

A : What is "The Great Replacement" *

( *A reference to the "Great Replacement" and "white genocide" conspiracy theories were present in the manifesto of Brenton Tarrant, a 28-year-old man from Grafton, New South Wales, Australia, described in media reports as a white supremacist and part of the alt-right,charged with 51 murders, 40 attempted murders, and engaging in a terrorist act.)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christchurch_mosque_shootings#Manifesto

@Malicious

See? I think we have made good progress in this thread. And it wasn't hard because we're actually all very reasonable people here. That's why I love this site and I honestly love all of you on it. We are still a cross section of the world so we come from different places and have different thoughts and feelings because our different perspectives are informed from different experiences growing up in different environments. But peel back all of our layers and we're still the same. Getting through those layers is sometimes the hard part and that's where it helps if we can pull back some of our own layers and speak truthfully about what's in our hearts and WHY we have certain positions rather than simply arguing about what those positions are and whether it's right or wrong.

Personal stories and details, like you shared, are gold, because it helps others understand where you're coming from. People may argue that certain things don't matter but I make sure whenever I'm talking about racial issues that people know I'm black and know about personal experiences that I've had. Because we need to see each other as REAL people, not just vague ideas wrapped up in a screen name. The power of the internet is that we can connect over long distances quickly and easily but the danger is that we are often no more than digital zeros and ones when we do.

So I thank you for sharing parts of yourself and your experiences. Thank you for allowing us a greater opportunity to get to know you, not just through your opinions, but through your life experiences. I respect that greatly.

Here's why I'm not worried abour over population and it's okay if we disagree.

https://www.npr.org/2019/12/31/792737851/u-s-population-growth-in-2019-is-slowest-in-a-century

In order to reproduce the same number of people, a couple needs to have 2 children. I say couple but reality is that the divorce rate is over 50%.... so... yeah. I have 2 biological children so, personally, my work is done. However, a lot of people aren't having children at all for different reasons. These reasons include economic conditions, career decisions, sexuality, bad childhood experiences, infertility, liberation/empowerment, birth control, birth defects including still birth, incompatibility, etc.

Now... I trust NPR. If you'd like to investigate other sources to back up the statements made in the cited article be my guest. I will read other sources you provide as long as they are trustworthy.

Now that I've mentioned quite a few reasons people aren't having children, population decreases from things like: aging, disease, cancer, drunk driving, homicide, accidental deaths, suicide, drug overdoses, etc.

And when you factor in the death of a child or young adult prior to them having a child of their own then not only is the population decreasing but that's another person not having children. And you'll find that in certain states there are actuall incentives for moving there because their populations are declining.

But another thing is that there are vast stretches of Americana that are completely undeveloped. Haven't you ever driven between states and just seen a lot of empty land? So how could we be over populated? Couldn't new towns and cities simply be developed in the future? These new towns and cities could create a massive number of new jobs to build them. And they could be more sustainable and energy efficient and environmentally conscious. Look at some of the new places in other parts of the world. Texas is HUGE and can accomodate a lot more people. But if you have ever lived in the inner city in many places you know that homes and lot sizes there are usually smaller and so people with less money usually buy those places while people with more money tend to migrate to the suburbs.

So what would happen if you started building new cities and towns with nicer housing. You can even 3D print a whole city if you wanted to. But creating new housing markets, infrastructure, etc. would create new opportunities and Mexico(ans) would pay for it simply by moving into the US and paying taxes. We could create a whole town of vertical farms and immigrants who come over illegally could live and work in these vertical farm buildings. We don't HAVE to see it as an "invasion" or something negative. Some people are defending their small corner of the map, not even realizing how crappy it is compared to what we could build in place of it. But we have to stop holding on to the past for dear life because that FEAR keeps us from building the future.
And the reality is the more people come here and participate in our economy the richer America becomes and the more powerful it becomes. And unfortunately part of that power is built on the backs of low income labor. But here's the thing... if people want to come and be that labor force... let them. They're not slaves. They have the choice to do that here or go somewhere else or stay where they are. And this way, the opportunity for you as an American to get paid to do a job and sub contract it to a number of these workers, helps you and them.

Real story. I'm a web developer. About 18-20 years ago my former boss asked me if I was still working or if I was subcontracting. She was smart about making money and when she asked me that I realized what she was actually saying. She was saying that I could simply manage a team of contractors that live in India or some foreign place and let them do all the work while I make a good cut. I never did that or wanted to do it. However, I recognize that it's smart business. And because I know how to do the work if they made mistakes I could fix them and make sure I delivered a good final product.

So if you think all these people don't benefit Americans, think again. Many Americans are exploiting anyone they can find who are willing to work for less money. In fact, that's how most rich people get on top. The only Americans who are scared of them are those low income Americans also willing to work for less money at jobs that not even they want but they're under educated and don't believe they have the same opportunities. Politicians harness this fear and turn them into votes and political power. These politicians are often millionaires who use underpaid labor all the time. They aren't scared one bit. They're only scared of losing their power.

So this is why Trump makes them think he cares about their jobs. He doesn't. Getting them to be afraid and then promising to do something about their fear is what gives him power. And at the end of the day that's what it's all about. These illegal immigrants aren't a problem. They are pawns in a game in order to make Americans scared so they will empower one political party so they can stay in power. And what do they use that power for? Fiscal responsibility? ROFL no! They use it to give tax cuts to the rich... government contracts to their friends and allies, etc. This is why Trump didn't think he did anything wrong. The reality is that politicians get favors and do favors all the time. But you're not supposed to abuse your office and Trump went too far. Withholding support to an ally in a war... for personal gain... that's going way too far.

But the point is... the rich and powerful exploit poor Americans... mostly white... in order to boost and maintain their own wealth and power. And that's why the pundits all act like its an invasion and how politicians can act like they don't know who David Duke is. It's their jobs to support this effort with misinformation and political spin. Those guys make lots of money, especially in the stock market. And if you're investing in defense contractors and Lockheed Martin and all those guys... then certain national policy positions are in your best financial interests. Does this not happen on the Democrat side of the aisle? Of course it does! That's why Bernie Sanders is so popular. Because we can smell it. He's not one of them. He actually wants what's best for the American people. And I'm not saying he's the only one. I think Andrew Yang is the same. Mayor Pete? No.

This is a system. And all the things that are messed up in the system are often messed up ON PURPOSE because it serves the interest of those in power. But they have to politically justify certain things if there's too much attention on it. And that's where political spin plays Americans against each other when we should be using the internet and independent media to compare notes and get all the facts and see through all the lies and propaganda so that WE, not them, can build a better future for ourselves.

People that voted for Trump... I'm not mad at them. They had the right idea! They wanted him to be different and be like a wrecking ball for corruption because he said that's what he was going to do. But he lied! He lied! And I knew the whole time he was lying! He was already more corrupt than many in D.C. put together. And part of his corruption was the lie that he wasn't corrupt and that he was going to "drain the swamp". What part of the swamp did he drain? What part of Mexico paid for the wall? Trade wars are easy? Health Care insurance is easy? All lies. No, he simply installed his own cronies, his own family members (while investigating nepotism with Biden), assigning world peace to ...Jared. Like seriously? And you think Jared has zero conflicts of interests, zero business dealings that could benefit from these relationships that the UNITED STATES has with all these countries? It was all a lie. He saw how corrupt they were but he wasn't mad. He was jealous... And he saw how the system could work ...for him.

Eddie Murphy did a movie a long time ago about politics that everyone needs to see... twice. It's funny but also sad and depressing because it tells the truth. Watch this movie and you'll understand (maybe...probably) why I think Trump is like Palpatine.

ZealotX wrote: Eddie Murphy did a movie a long time ago about politics that everyone needs to see... twice. It's funny but also sad and depressing because it tells the truth. Watch this movie and you'll understand (maybe...probably) why I think Trump is like Palpatine.

The trailer looks super corny, but ill give it a watch. There is another film series that actually has a lot to say on the issuesof politics, race and white supremacy:



"You refer to us as 'alien,' and the Princess calls us 'nonhuman.' Why are we defined by you and in comparison to you?"
–Borsk Fey’lya


Humanocentrism was the tendency to view the galaxy from the perspective of a human majority. Humanocentrism was pervasive and in many cases, subconscious. It was the source for the Human use of the term “alien” to describe nonhuman species and in some cases tended towards nonhuman speciesism.

Although Humanocentrism was technically outlawed by the Rights Of Sentience in the Galactic Constitution which insisted on the equality of all sentient beings regardless of their ethnicity and national origin *cough* I mean species, anti-alien sentiment still very much existed throughout the life of the Republic before its fall.

At the time of the foundation of the Galactic Empire there were several active, minority populist groups advocating concepts of Human supremacy. These were quickly assimilated into the Commission of the Preservation of the New Order (COMPNOR) which was developed shortly after the fall of the Galactic Republic and influenced the development of The Human High Culture.
The chief tenet of Human High Culture was that Humans were the only truly intelligent and productive members of any society.

The idea of Humanocentrism reached its peak in the Human High Culture under the reign of the Galactic Empire. Antislavery laws were repealed and legislation legalizing the persecution of aliens was passed. The New Order promoted human supremacy while designating other species as second class citizens if granted citizenship at all with many being subject to outright slavery and genocide.

https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Humanocentrism
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Speciesism
https://starwars.fandom.com/wiki/Human_High_Culture

Hey just heard, Trump got acquitted! Is this like puxatony Phil? 4 more years of boarder wall!


Sorry, couldnt resist.

Fyxe wrote: Hey just heard, Trump got acquitted! Is this like puxatony Phil? 4 more years of boarder wall!


Sorry, couldnt resist.

*Punxsutawney Phil

This is really "vexxing" me ....I figured the original just accidentally misspelled "Border" but the rest of you are all misspelling it too. Is this misspelling an on-going joke, or do you all really not know the difference between BoRder and BoARder?

Alethea Thompson wrote: This is really "vexxing" me ....I figured the original just accidentally misspelled "Border" but the rest of you are all misspelling it too. Is this misspelling an on-going joke, or do you all really not know the difference between BoRder and BoARder?

Once the line has been crossed immigrants have officially boarded spaceship USA.

And now, for a little on topic comedic relief I invite you all to get lost...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-6OJEdPo6vI

The more come in, the broader it gets!

:laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Ok, so i just spent about an hour rereading all the previous posts and cutting/pasting them into a word document so i can, even though its super windy causing my wifi connection to cut in and out, work on responses to them offline.
I didn't realize how many different views and details i had overlooked that deserve response. It may take awhile but im intending on responding to them sooner or later. Leaning toward later seeing how just from the cut/paste ive now collected 7 full pages of complex ideas and perspectives to contemplate.

for the moment Id like to say thanks for the great debate/conversation so far and *spoiler alert* a couple of you totally blew my brains out with things I'd never thought of or encountered before. so thanks double to you.


Boarder

Alethea Thompson wrote: At least someone is using the Doctrine to justify their answers- but Kerouacs I think you could have made a much better argument rather than just posting the Jedi Believe section and leaving it there.

The way I've come to understand "inherent worth of all life" is that we value a person's ability to make their own decisions and forge their own paths.
: “Their own paths” here seems to be a metaphor for “neural paths” as it is the act of thinking you seem most concerned with preserving. Physical paths like, idk, this one

Attachment bordercrossing1.jpg not found

that lead away from suffering and towards wellbeing (comparatively anyway) are the paths you oppose as shown by the following statement.
There is a line that shouldn't be crossed though- I may respect your ability to make choices, and even that you have made a choice- but I don't have to respect the choice. A person that decides to break into a home has made the choice

First of all claiming not to paint all immigrants as criminals while using an example of criminality describing the rights you feel immigrants are inalienably endowed with doesn’t somehow undo the statement. You are using the example of breaking and entering a house as a side by side comparison of immigrants crossing the boarder. They are not crossing and entering a private residence. They are crossing into public property, or open space inhabited by cattle. It is a victimless crime which is to say not a crime at all.

So as it concerns someone who is coming from the Mexican border, my belief in their worth is as a thinking human being. They don't deserve to be treated any less or more than anyone else. They are to be respected.
Why does the inherent worth of travelers from south of the US Mexico boarder only extend into their freedom of thought “as a thinking human being” but not into the realm of their physical bodies as eating human beings water drinking human beings or houseless human beings?

Because you’re an idealist. Because you think the material reality of these people is a result of their thoughts not a result of their circumstances of birth. This is evidenced by your later statement pertaining to the “fear of cartels” rather than the cartels themselves (or better yet the systemic causes which brought the cartels into existence) needing to be the focus of aid to refugees as well as “education” to tell potential travelers why they shouldn’t come.


The wall in and of itself is not cruel or unusual. What could be considered such, however, is what happens after they get detained and placed into camps while they are processed.

This is plainly wrong. There are deaths occurring before and without contact with boarder patrol because the wall pushes travelers further away from life saving resources rather than towards them. The wall was put there in advance of their arrival in anticipation of their arrival with the express intent of being a barrier to access knowingly and purposely diminishing the safety of people they knew would come.
Much of the reason this is an issue is because of the droves of people that run from south of the Mexican border. If less people crossed the border, we could afford to give them better conditions. That's not the fault of the any particular government, I'm afraid.
So the consequences of the actions of the government isn’t the fault of the government. Abducting and shoving people into cages knowing they are a person and that the object your shoving them into is a cage becomes justifiable because…the government. You know “reasons“
Many of the governments do what they can, but breaking a particular kind of spirit amongst the populace (fear of cartels and other similar criminal activities) is hard. It won't be until that is broken that we will see less people trying to jump the border, and then we can afford to give better accommodations. So cruel and unusual is a difficult thing to overcome until the Federal Offices finally decide to reform Immigration.
so then it is cruel? I mean when I read “cruel and unusual is a difficult thing to overcome” Im hearing that the wall and policy policing the boarder is cruel and unusual, but of course you’ll flip flop in the next section

The Death Penalty is a sentence issued after someone is convicted of serious crimes. It doesn't apply to this question, since the sentence issued to someone who is found here illegally and does not gain asylum is to be deported.
Many who have been deported after being denied as asylum seekers have returned home to be killed.
Is Deportation, however, a law grounded in reason and compassion? NOW we're getting to a good question. The individual isn't discriminated against because they are from another nation, but rather because they are here under the criminal act of illegal immigration- so we can toss the discrimination piece out of the discussion.
Maybe I’m out of my mind but “The individual isn't discriminated against because they are from another nation, but rather because they are here under the criminal act of illegal immigration” seems an obvious contradiction. So let me get this right:
Immigrants aren’t discriminated against because they are from another nation, but our nation discriminates against them because they are immigrants? You are joking right? The only thing worse than for you to be joking like this would be if you weren’t joking so I’ll assume you’re joking.

Again and again you miss the opportunity to recognize the basic humanity of non-Americans fleeing poverty and violence and instead you decide to compartmentalize their humanity to the abstract notion they deserve the right to think freely while they are driven to remote and dangerous parts of the desert and then purposely dusted by helicopters, scattered, hunted, forcibly abducted and shoved into cages and processed into a consumable commodity by the detention centers.

Adder wrote: You have a duty if care as its owner.... but the US or any nation does not have the capacity nor assigned duty of care over all humans on the planet! It quite literally what a nation is, the boundary between citizens and non citizens. A nation has responsibilities to its citizens far far in excess of those to non-citizens. Your beef might better be with the Mexican government (if I read your meaning correctly).

This post has had me thinking for days. You seem to be correct that a nation is, at least in part "the boundary between citizens and non citizens."
If adherence to what the Jedi Believe* does not conflict with building barriers and policing the boarders to prevent free passage between nations and does not require the rights of non citizens to be equal to those of citizens then our values are not universally applied but only pertain to legal citizens and are inherently discriminatory. North of the boarder you have legal rights and the Jedi think your life matters. South you don't. This is an inherently disrespectful contradiction to the belief "In the Force, and in the inherent worth of all life within it." ALL life within it means Everything. Everyone. Everywhere.
* (we believe) " In a society that does not discriminate on the basis of sexual orientation or circumstances of birth such as gender, ethnicity and national origin" )

If you are correct that what defines a nation is the distinction of citizen and non citizens then the question seems to shift slightly and become focused on the nation state as a whole rather than just one of its parts along the southern boarder.

Does a nation require discrimination to exist?

Is the nation state itself in conflict with the inherent worth of all life if it requires discrimination on the basis of circumstances of birth, ethnicity and national origin to exist?

If such an organization is in contradiction to The force and the inherent worth of all life within it then how would a society function which both recognized the worth of all life while protecting all interests of all humans?

Build that wall? That is a ridiculous sentiment that is offensive to the very notion of humanity.

Malicious wrote: I will say something that most far left don't want anyone to hear . I'm a Trump supporter , and I'm Hispanic . My grandmother came here legally .
A hispanic Trump supporter? That's preposterous. How do I know if that is true? Can you prove that is who you really are? Isn't that an obnoxious request of me to make of you?

I have no problem with anyone's race . To me I don't see someone's race but how they are as a person .....
To be colorblind or not to "see someones race" is a way of not seeing them at all. I'm sure they know what race they are or are assigned/assumed to be. You not seeing it is just another way of you not acknowledging their existence.

I wonder why they would want to come here ? To exploit our country and tax dollars so they can get things for free. As well as get higher paying jobs . It doesn't matter what race you are a bum is a bum . If they genuinely need protecting then they would come here legally
.if someone is trying to get a higher paying job how are they also a bum? I think you're thinking of a hobo.

So then they are either doing something illegal and other illegal activities or don't want anyone to know they are here because they are afraid . If they are doing illegal activities then it needs to stop . The government can be secretive so the latter won't be much of a problem just come legally . This is not a plot to only keep white people in power but to protect our citizens .
We don't need or want people doing illegal things here that's why we have laws . Laws to keep us safe...
There are already laws and enforcement against drug possession and dealing. There are already laws against theft and burglary and assault and everything else. These laws can be enforced regardless of a persons legal status. Being pro immigrant isn't being pro crime. You can be an immigrant and not commit crime just as surely as you can be a criminal but not an immigrant
. REGARDLESS of who the president is they are our president and we need to respect that . I Will go on and continue to respect and support any one who becomes president .
Why would you do that? I'm not saying you shouldn't but I certainly don't have a different set of morals that I'm willing to commit to if the opposition wins. A Democratic Republic does not require blind obedience to function it requires discourse.

I like this quote .
" In the first place, we should insist that if the immigrant who comes here in good faith becomes an American and assimilates himself to us, he shall be treated on an exact equality with everyone else, for it is an outrage to discriminate against any such man because of creed, or birthplace, or origin. But this is predicated upon the person's becoming in every facet an American, and nothing but an American...There can be no divided allegiance here. Any man who says he is an American, but something else also, isn't an American at all. We have room for but one flag, the American flag... We have room for but one language here, and that is the English language... and we have room for but one sole loyalty and that is a loyalty to the American people."
- Theodore Roosevelt

If Roosevelt was an assimilationist then he was a racist. The terms are synonymous.