The Spiritual Plane

Alethea Thompson wrote: Not just dying to it- losing yourself.

The Astral Plane has been known to be a place that people replace their lives with. Frankly, your personality type is one I would advise against traveling to and from.

You traveling to that realm concerns me because you seem to have a lack of self-esteem. In going through some of your older posts I've noticed a trend of how you interact with people here on the board. Instead of teaching, you ask questions about things like you're seeking validation. Whether it's used as a clever way to teach or you're genuinely trying to learn doesn't negate what it says about your personality: you lack confidence in your ability. This makes it quite dangerous for you to get involved in Astral matters.

Don't worry, I'm not singling you out. Believe it or not, it was my own revelation of exactly this that lead me to the Jedi Community in April 2002. I lost myself to that plane, and I brought people into it. In the process, my best friend developed schizophrenia, was sucked into human trafficking, she then escaped human trafficking - she found herself on the streets paranoid that everyone that tried to help her was tied to the human traffickers, caught H1N1 and died. Another friend turned to drugs as a way to get there with more ease. She came out of that after a school friend died from his first heroin shoot up, and discovered the only friends that cared about her were the ones not engaged in drugs (fortunately I can say that I was one of those friends). The list goes on, some were jolted out of it, and others haven't broken free.

For me, it was more subtle. I wasn't helping people- though I thought I was- I was actively hurting them by replacing a life where they were meant to fulfill a purpose-driven life, but their life's purpose was halted or completely negated because they believed they were doing more good for the world on the Astral than they could ever do in the real world.

In fact, it's the complete opposite. The Astral should only be used to inform us of how to carry on in the living world. The spiritual battles of the Astral Plane are completely negated when you take command of your life here and find ways around the obstacles. If you're not in a emotionally stable place to fully recognize how to use the Astral in this way, then it poses a significant danger to you. And trust me- even the most emotionally stable person can lose themselves to the Astral.

A lot of the meditation techniques I've come across personally try to stimulate the parasympathetic nervous system of your body, this system when stimulated helps to further slow your breathing, slow your heart rate, increase urine production of all things, but also trigger a lot of your other organs relating to digestion to function, which diverts a lot of your body's energy in that direction, this is one of the reasons you get really tired when you eat a really big meal because a lot of food in your stomach also triggers that nervous system. Over-stimulation is possible in certain cases to lower your heart rate too far, or reduce the strength of your muscles overall that combined with something like sleep apnea can stop you from breathing for a time, which in turn lowers your oxygen level which has a whole nother cascade of effects. It's one of the reasons I prefer to do meditation in motion such as tai chi or other practices rather then just resting meditation.

As a fairly resident expert of my own obstructive sleep apnea if you have any more questions related to it feel free to ask.

Alethea Thompson wrote: Not just dying to it- losing yourself.

The Astral Plane has been known to be a place that people replace their lives with. Frankly, your personality type is one I would advise against traveling to and from... .

Are you suggesting that this “Astral Plane” has actually been the cause of physical maladies and addictions like schizophrenia and drug abuse or the loss of one’s self so great it actually causes a schism with reality so profound that they became susceptible to be preyed upon by criminals?

Is this really a Jedi way of thinking? Living your life in a superstitiously fueled fear? I would say that instead of continuing to hold onto arcane and archaic ideas that no longer make any sense that a Jedi would seek their own power in all things. Look carefully at those things that scare you with a critical eye and begin to realize the only cause of one’s current state of affairs is yourself. To blame ethereal forces that there is no evidence for is just self-delusion.

I don't have any issues with it anymore. I have turned it into a source I can use to help heal people, Kyrin. But I have actually watched these things happen to people that did not know what they were doing. They do it on their own, and without a trained professional- it can either go VERY WRONG or it can become an incredible healing aide.

Any respectable shaman will tell you that you shouldn't engage in that realm without a trained guide, and you shouldn't try to use it without proper training.

Furthermore, exorcists have turned to the wisdom of psychologists to see if the problem is medical or if it might be something in the mind of the person. Psychologists have been known to sometimes promote the use of spiritual methods that will speak better to the patient as well. I've known a few psychologists that were called in by exorcists to assess whether or not a patient should undergo an exorcism.

Here's the thing, whether your believe that the Astral Plane is real or not, what it gives you is a world that you can escape to. This is a reality. If you don't believe the plane exists, then at best you are creating imaginary friends and giving them personality traits. As you personally gain more insight into the world, these personalities in your head take on more and more traits, if you have low self-esteem, they can start becoming the voices of everyone that you believe hates you. If you have a healthy self-esteem, they can become voices of encouragement. If you have a huge ego- they can become the voices telling you how great your are and how not-so-great everyone else is. The one thing that is true, is that for many with low self-esteem tend to find that the world they craft is far more interesting than the real world. They miss the opportunities available to them to transform the real world.

If you believe that it's a real spiritual world, then at worst you attract the energy you put out. Malicious spirits can come into your life and torment you, and you just take it because you feel that's what you are worth. Or you feel they are trying to teach you something so you refuse to reject them. At best, you're low self-esteem can attract well-meaning spirits into your life that take pity upon you. You find that these friends are more friends to you than the people in the real world. So instead of seeking real world friends, you escape into Astral where you can communicate with well-meaning spirits. Again, missing out on what you could be doing here and now to improve the world so others don't feel the same way you do in the future. If you have a healthy self-esteem, you can attract spirits that encourage you to carry on with your life in the real world.

The dynamics all change depending on an individual. I've watched these things happen, it's not just about predisposition. Sometimes the problems are simply linked to one's self-esteem altogether. Sometimes it's about attracting attention because you need it (the people that look like they are perpetually possessed in a church certainly fit this particular model). Sometimes it's about not knowing what to do because you're completely lost, so you turn to something else you can blame. That's another situation we can see in some cases of "possession".

The way an individual overcomes this? They have to learn to take charge of their lives. Sometimes, it does take the spiritual jolt from a trained professional to help you get there. Sometimes it takes the "mundane" answers of going to a therapist or talking it out with your friends. And sometimes, it really is a medical problem that spiritual leaders cannot do a thing to assist with.

Just because something is archaic, doesn't mean it should be altogether discounted. I understand you've not seen the things I've seen. Helped the people I've helped. But please, until you've really dug into the subject don't dismiss the warning. It's up to him if he wants to go that route. I won't stop him, but at least he knows the risks- and that really is a major part of the battle for keeping yourself sane.

I’m not saying the astral plane does not exist but I’m also not agreeing that it does. Because there is actually no cohesive evidence that has ever been presented that such a thing exists we must fall back to the default position of disbelief until such time that sufficient evidence could be presented. This is outside of any unsubstantiated assertions you may put forth that it does exist. Those are irrelevant without proof.

But even having said that, you are well within your rights to continue to make those assertions just as I am free to refute them and we can do that all day long. However my real issue here is that you take things one step further and are using fear and superstition in an attempt to scare others into believing you hold some superior position over them by asserting you have some knowledge or skill they lack or are ignorant of and therefore it’s in their best interest to heed your wise macabre warnings or disaster will result.

If by some unlikely scenario such a thing did exist how does one get the training you mention to deal with such things anyway? Is there some degree you can get or otherwise accredited course of study to certify you as worthy to tackle an otherwise “supernatural” force that does not follow the laws of nature? The very idea that there exists some “trained professional” that is qualified in this is just inane. How do you become an expert in something that does not follow logic or the laws of reality as we know them?

I understand that people have issues and that the human mind is rife with imagination and self-escapism. People are flawed and some have esteem issues and some have arrogance issues and some have mental issues. But to take these things and introduce an extra layer of causation outside of the well documented and reproducible results of the human physiology itself is just bizarre. If there was even a shred of authenticity in this claim it would already be an integral part of our reality, no different than any other common threat, say disease for example – a well-known and intimately documented phenomenon.

In fact there is no evidence outside subjective experience that any such thing as an astral plane that contains evil beasties exists and it’s an invalid approach to try and treat these issues in such a way. We know a great deal about the human mind now as well as the function of evolution and the universe and we should be using these tool and skills to better interact with our environment to produce more effective results.

If we were to succumb to your reasoning we should still be bloodletting the humors with leaches!!! This is just ridiculous. It’s these very attitudes that enslave people. The Christian churches have been doing this very same thing for centuries. The reality of the situation is that if this “realm” does exist there should be nothing stopping us from openly exploring it as another integral aspect of nature, free of fear and without your threat of doom from some external force of malevolent evil bent on our destruction.

Sven One wrote: Manu,

What is wrong with being in the Spiritual Planes? I understand dying from it but, is it really dangerous? I have heard of demons, creatures, ect. being there and being certain levels of it but, what do you know? Or were you just merely referring to my health? Please clarify.

I'm referring to your health.

Every minute spent in the Astral Plane is a minute not tending to more urgent and important matters. Your health matters. Get moving. Don't let your hobby distract you from getting things done.

Sure, perhaps you didn't notice- I didn't actually say a word about the problems of going onto the Astral UNTIL he asked the question about what other problems might be present. He opened the door. There are a few people on this board that I would personally recommend him to use as a guide ONCE he's checked into his health. Each one of them I have confidence would tell him he's not ready for such an endeavor.

Fear is a healthy thing, and to think it is not is rather foolish. Fear itself can help one open their minds to possibilities. Fear of losing a loved one to cancer might cause someone to go into cancer research. Fear does not need to be debilitating, it can lead to liberation. It can also lead to darkness. Fear is not my point in anything I've pointed him to- but his mental health is. Perhaps you should consider the real issue I'm pointing out to him: He needs to work on himself in a myriad of ways.

Now, yes, I did say that even the most emotionally stable can get lost there. Those are the kinds that just want a thrill, they have no purpose-driven reason to interact with that realm. Which really is the key difference in emotionally stable people: What is your purpose for going to the Astral? If you're there to gain deeper insight into people, or to gain some sort of higher knowledge- you should be fine.

One more thing: It's not just something that I am saying. The "fear-mongering" as you pretty much put it, is quite present in almost every major tradition around the world. Many traditions hold that interacting with the divine (which is really the realm of the Astral Plane) should only be done by those that are blessed by some god. That those who try to get involved with it without that blessing will be plagued. At least with newer spiritual traditions the understanding is more inline with emotional maturity rather than some divine acceptance. Recognizing that everyone can have that ability to connect with the divine in a healthy way- but only if they are emotional stable. High Priests and Priestesses will refuse to allow members to travel until they HAVE worked through their persistent emotional health issues.

Obviously, I'm not in Sven's state (as I recall it's Washington) nor do I work with people online, so there's no real reason for me to hold over him the fact that I do have 20+ years of experience. All I can do is advise him and anyone else that cares to do this, to first get their emotional and medical health up before they go exploring the Astral Realm.

I've said all I care to say. I'm out of the conversation now.

Sven One wrote: I understand dying from it but, is it really dangerous?

YES.

Dear god, I love all of the sane, health-related replies in this thread.

You guys give me hope. Thank you

Alethea Thompson wrote: There are a few people on this board that I would personally recommend… Each one of them I have confidence would tell him he's not ready for such an endeavor.

This is my point. By what authority do these people have to tell anyone they are not ready for such an endeavor? How do you judge such a thing? There are as many different interpretations of this “Astral Realm” as there are practitioners so which “experts” are we even referring to? I could just as easily claim some expertise in these areas and I would say that no one should ever be denied a divine experience or told they are not ready for such a thing. Many undertake these things by themselves or with the help of a book and some seek guidance from other practitioners. All of these methods are valid and just as open to anyone. You are wrong to tell anyone they should not experience these things because you perceive them as mentally unstable. Unless your a mental health provider that has personally taken a patient under your care, you’re not qualified to make that judgment and you’re not qualified to use fear to try and scare someone into not pursuing that experience. At the very most, all you can say is that you personally will not guide them.

Alethea Thompson wrote: Fear is a healthy thing, and to think it is not is rather foolish

I never said fear was not a healthy thing, but fear mongering, as you put it, and as you are engaging in, is not a healthy thing.

Alethea Thompson wrote: Many traditions hold that interacting with the divine (which is really the realm of the Astral Plane) should only be done by those that are blessed by some god.

Before you take this any further, first you would have to demonstrate that any of these “Gods” or “divine realms” you mention even really exist and secondly you would have to then demonstrate that they can be dangerous. You have done neither here, instead you have only made assertions.

Alethea Thompson wrote: Recognizing that everyone can have that ability to connect with the divine in a healthy way- but only if they are emotional stable.

So those with mental issues or handicaps are not allowed to interact with the divine then? Those suffering from depression or bi-polar or other maladies are denied or should not otherwise engage in this divine experience? I think with this statement you just disqualified 3/4 of the community here in the pursuit of their spiritual studies.

Alethea Thompson wrote: Obviously, I'm not in Sven's state (as I recall it's Washington) nor do I work with people online, so there's no real reason for me to hold over him the fact that I do have 20+ years of experience.

And yet you could not help but mention those 20 years of experience here. This is nothing more than an argument from self-authority. It’s ultimately meaningless. I can say the exact same thing. I also have over 15 years in the pagan communities and I have been formally trained into the priesthood in two different formal traditions. So how is it that we both have the massive amount of “experience and training” and yet have different opinions on this subject?

I can appreciate your not wanting to drag this out. I didn’t really intend this to become a long drawn out thing either. In the end it all comes down to this, you’re not the end all be all authority on such things. In fact there are no “authorities”. Different people have different experiences and interactions and interpretations and no two are alike because these “realms” are not set but instead they are what each of us make of them through subjective encounter. You can’t claim they are any one way and expect anyone else to accept that as the only true and correct interpretation. If your experience with these things is through fear then I’m sorry, but that does not make it so for anyone else and you shouldn’t use that fear to try and scare others into not exploring their own divine experience.

Gosh, I didn't mean cause hurt feelings or disagreements here. I do appreciate everyone's care for my well being that is very humbling. Aletha, I do respect you but, I cannot help notice your interest in me as a person. I almost feel like your intentions are good but, I also feel as though you just judged me as a Jedi, a Teaching Master who has an apprentice and is in fact teaching which I don't appreciate. The council on the website/temple have approved me as a Knight and a teaching Master on TOTJO. I feel that was a low blow to me and I don't understand why you would say that. Then Kyrin disagrees with you and you get upset with her and call it quits on this thread because she disagrees with you. I do have low self-esteem issues and trust me, it was one thing my teaching Master tried to work on in me and still does...ARE YOU GONNA TELL HIM HE FAILED AS A MASTER?

Yes, I agree I need to work on my health and I have the last several days been going to the gym and going for a 1/2 brisk walk after work. Eating more fruits, veggies and lean protein as described by my doctor. Cutting alot of sugars, coffee, sodas and candy out of diet. I did fall into the Astral Planes again however...

This time wandering the house. I saw floating spheres of light hovering and when I would come into contact with them a chime would come out of them and a laughter. I found it interesting and marvelous at the same time. I then decided to leave and returned to the room. I woke up. I got up and drank some water and went back to sleep. Enough said.

Sven One wrote: ...ARE YOU GONNA TELL HIM HE FAILED AS A MASTER?

This was not directed at me, but I'm going to butt-in anyway...

Your TM - I do not like the use of the word "Master", it displaces responsibility - is NOT responsible for your progress. He is a facilitator. He provides a sounding board and an occasional nudge in the right direction, but it is you, and only you, who are responsible for getting things done.

Sven One wrote: Yes, I agree I need to work on my health and I have the last several days been going to the gym and going for a 1/2 brisk walk after work. Eating more fruits, veggies and lean protein as described by my doctor. Cutting alot of sugars, coffee, sodas and candy out of diet.

That's great! Keep at it! Consistency is the name of the game. You can wander off to astral planes all you like, just don't use it as a Distractor from things requiring your attention, in the here and now.

I would imagine many of us are not in the best shape of our lives for many reasons I am sure not one of which is the amount of time spent behind the computer deciding to engage in this conversation . I have not gone through most of these responses simply because I am actually away from the computer. I Will say this Sven in the time of his apprenticeship was working on these issues and I support him on healthy endeavors to do so and still do.

What I do not enjoy or support is some behavior toward my apprentice that has been seen here and in many other posts. I would suggest those people should focus on there own Jedi path.

Hope your all,well.

I've never had a full on out of body experience. I have gotten minor details through remote viewing on occasion though.

I agree with you to an extent Manu. I do like the title, "Master" because it shows a sign of respect much like you'd call a "Pastor" of a church or Rabbi (Fill in the blanks) I don't like it because of people's egos though but, it is a place of honor. On the other end of things yes, I agree I am responsible for my progress during the apprenticeship and afterwords. However, I didn't appreciate her attacking my journey as Jedi or a teacher. If I wasn't capable of continuing here at TOTJO as an Apprentice I wouldn't have received Knighthood. If, the council didn't see me capable of taking on my own Apprenticeship I've been around long enough to know the Council wouldn't allow me to or tell me that I am not ready yet. Please, also understand she has been criticizing any post that I posted the last several months and I have be very patient and humble and with several people not just her.

I've gotten to the point I'm getting tired of people ripping on me it's to start standing my ground here totjo. I've worked hard, I've learned alot and also from others. I'm willing to listen and learn but, if you want to respect of your journey I respectfully ask you respect mine as well. AND...don't follow back on my journal entries as ammunition against me thank you.

So, I've been reading this reading this for a bit, Thank you Firewolf for you're concern. Throwing up my new respect each other comment streak, lol. *yellow flag flies on to message board* All I got here is opinions and basic experiences.

First define the astral plane because there are many. Wither these are psychological or "real" in kinda mute point because the fact that one believes they exist means they do; I have seen some messed up and very serene stuff I cant explain and won't try too. Interesting right!

Aletha, I have lost many friends to drugs, and in some ways I see certain uses of pharmaceuticals not all that horrible, but this must be done in a controlled and understood method or it WILL KILL. I'm a recovering Alchy for point of reference. Drugs do not make someone evil (you didn't say it but it comes across a lil like that, no offense) it is the actions and consequences they carry out that do, drugs just distort the you're ability to understand that. Leading to the pain of others.

Sven a bit of advice, what you saw now exists to you, you saw it in unconscious meditation, now try to slowly work on understanding it and how to see it in conscious meditation. But as is warned by many a horror films and "mediums and psychics" and acid takers do not stray far from yourself. I do worry much for you're health in said scenario, so ensure that is taken care of. But, keep an open mind to the experience you have as it may not need come around this way again. Second, on some points to Aletha was saying there is things and stuff that we do not understand that can have very adverse effects in these planes and it is not to be handled lightly. Good, Evil IDK but again some unexplained things remain and the unknown should be walked carefully.

This is one of my experiences, I have seen people go into some interesting state some drug induced, shock induced by injury (I've been there), Physiological/psychological. One first hand I had was this. When I lost control of my Durango on some ice roughly 3 years ago, going very fast 70mph-ish. I slid out of the road head on to a bridge support. I remember loosing control, taking a chance to catch the slide but when I realized there was no coming back. I saw that I had absolutely no way to avoid the support head on. I watched it from the outside the car. Only coming too on the second bounce off the to the side. Now, I vividly remember watching the car hit the bridge and bouncing on the trajectory it did. I honestly thought I was dead when I pulled myself back from the deflating air-bag. I had to check my body and literally came out unscathed say some scratches from my sunglasses around my eyes (Super Lucky). Psychologically, it is most likely that I simply didn't want to face hitting the first part so, My mind blocked it out and then post accident reconstructed it from third person perspective. Physically my body most likely went limp (which reduces the possibility of severe injury in any form of collision IDK.) Point is there are times now when I meditate that I use this vision as a starting point to reach out to my surroundings. Starting first and understanding where I am and slowly building the details of the room around me using the senses. Now, again this means nothing but a picture in my mind of myself and the area around me right it proves nothing. Now, I also get a sense of the vibe of the room, can that be considered a form of receiving an astral plane since with out some refined use of the senses emotion from other people in this form often goes unnoticed? IDK......Just some stuff to think about.

Much Love and Respect,
Kobos

Sven One wrote: I agree with you to an extent Manu. I do like the title, "Master" because it shows a sign of respect much like you'd call a "Pastor" of a church or Rabbi (Fill in the blanks) I don't like it because of people's egos though but, it is a place of honor. On the other end of things yes, I agree I am responsible for my progress during the apprenticeship and afterwords. However, I didn't appreciate her attacking my journey as Jedi or a teacher. If I wasn't capable of continuing here at TOTJO as an Apprentice I wouldn't have received Knighthood. If, the council didn't see me capable of taking on my own Apprenticeship I've been around long enough to know the Council wouldn't allow me to or tell me that I am not ready yet. Please, also understand she has been criticizing any post that I posted the last several months and I have be very patient and humble and with several people not just her.

I've gotten to the point I'm getting tired of people ripping on me it's to start standing my ground here totjo. I've worked hard, I've learned alot and also from others. I'm willing to listen and learn but, if you want to respect of your journey I respectfully ask you respect mine as well. AND...don't follow back on my journal entries as ammunition against me thank you.

I understand it can get tiring to deal with criticism, and I cannot speak on behalf of others, but please know that any criticism you receive from my end is not malicious. I respect you, and I care, and that is why I am more bluntly honest with my thoughts. It's the same as with friends... you "give it to 'em straight", whereas with strangers, you will let them continue with the broccoli in between their teeth to remain polite. :whistle:

Don't get too crossed about people being critical, there is something to learn therein. A large part of self-esteem is learning to stand your ground, and that includes not hiding behind communal approval ("the Council"), titles ("Knighthood"), and simply embracing whatever is thrown at you and taking it by the horns.

Just my two cents, anyway.

Thank you Manu and Kobos and of course Master Firewolf I appreciate your input.

Manu, No I don't think your being rude I felt your trying to help we're cool. I normally don't get crossed with too many people but, I've noticed lately that I need to be more assertive and I welcome most Constructive Criticism I believe we learn that way. But, again I say when someone is constantly critical I grow tired of it. I try not to hide behind people or approval but, people for example my Master Firewolf I have a high amount of respect for and he is an important person in my life and a mentor and I do desire his approval. But, I also want my own approval for myself and I see where people (ex: Alethea) will say I have low self-esteem. But, thank you for you advice.

Kobos, I believe I recall you sharing that experience once before in another post but, I am not certain didn't you run out into the road to throw your spare tire onto the side so no one would run it over? I am not thats off topic but, I always remember that being a great story if it was you that told it and you helped a lady who ran over the ice as well. The cop was mad lol...

Thank you for sharing your experiences.

I Appreciate, it Sven; I just did what I did couldn't honestly say I was thinking about it, but I kinda didn't really go into the after part of it more just the actual accident moment. That is correct after figuring out I was good, I kicked my door open rolled in the snow for a sec ("double checking") then noticed the spare was in the middle of the lane and there was still traffic so I booked it up there threw it down, then yea the lady slid off while I was waiting for the tow truck and I didn't see a reason he couldn't do it. I wasn't going anywhere lol, her car still could! I just kinda think that was a natural reaction just trying to be kind and the tire was for sure a danger to any traffic coming in. But, again I don't take pride in it too much just because it was like a reaction I wasn't really thinking about doing those things at the time I just did them.

Sven it has always been my desire that you or any student of mine be your own person. As long as my students act right and safety. I am proud of you. I always have been
I have told you before as long as you are safe in your health persutes I am happy. I trust you to know but am always here. If you need.

Thank you Master I know you are.