How to Better Look After Newcomers?

Asakura Shoji wrote:

Nami wrote: Asking for a criminal is not the same as judging someone for a criminal record.

Then why ask in the first place, if you aren't intending to do anything with the information?

Human nature is going to lend itself toward judging, as much as people may try hard not to. You can't un-know that about someone.

To cover its legal bases. To make sure that sexual offenders aren't around children.

Also, if someone lies on a membership application, I would argue that they aren't dedicated to Jediism. Honesty is one of the 21 Maxims.

"Honesty: To avoid lies.

A Jedi is honest with themselves and seeks to always go beyond appearances. There can be no honest self without the knowledge and wisdom to see truth."

Asakura Shoji wrote: *EDITED to add* Also, who can see that information? Clergy only, who are bound by clergy-parishioner privilege, or more? I suspect it's more people than that.

Actually, the general Clergy cannot see that information. I don't know the answer to your broader question, although I suspect it would be some or all of the Council (the VP of Membership Affairs for certain), and possibly the Security Officers.

As I recall I never was asked for any of that. But, if they did I have nothing to hide. I have been a member of plenty of churches in my life and most of them never asked for a background check. Except, when I was part of The Lutheran Church (LMS) but,I was ordained a deacon so I can understand.

Arisaig wrote: Its for legal reasons. Anyone who becomes a member can aspire to become a Knight, and as a Knight they are a representative for this place. The TotJO must know if their potential reps have done anything that could reflect badly on them.

Its also part of the teachings. A Jedi has Integrity, so they fess up to the mistakes of the past and grow from it.

Then ask people before they become knights or apprentices, once they've been around long enough to know if this is what they want to do. Once they get to know you and you know them so they can feel comfortable with whatever judgement then occurs. Have it be like one of the Jedi trials in lore. Heck, have people do an actual background check at that point--you can get one for like $20.

I'm reminding you all this is in the "how to better look after newcomers" section. I'm suggesting that this is perhaps not a question for newcomers who just came here to try to learn about Jediism and participate in discussions about it.

Why not then just stay as a guest? Don't go to that member status. If, its invading on your privacy.

Agreed with Sven. There is no requirement to become a member unless you want to move up in this community. You can do the entire IP and participate in a majority of the forums as a guest... and if you want to make the next step after that, then you can submit your application.

Asakura Shoji wrote:

Nami wrote: Asking for a criminal is not the same as judging someone for a criminal record.

Then why ask in the first place, if you aren't intending to do anything with the information?

Human nature is going to lend itself toward judging, as much as people may try hard not to. You can't un-know that about someone.

As others have said, it's the very least we can do in the direction of due diligence.

It's not that we would not intend to do anything with the information ever, because clearly situations could come up where the Temple would take special measures based upon that information. The example thrown out about a convicted child sex offender is the obvious one, but what might not be so obvious is that taking measures to segregate someone whose history makes them compromised in such a manner is for that member's protection just as much as it is for the Temple or for hypothetical underage members.

What we don't do to my knowledge is deny someone membership based upon that information. At least I have never heard that we have done.

As a public defender, I work with people all the time who have to adjust to the life changes that come along with some criminal convictions. Believe me, I am totally on board with banning the box, but that is because we in the States have facilitated the misuse of this kind of due diligence on an institutional level by permitting unfair employment and civil rights discrimination based upon criminal history.

Sven One wrote: Why not then just stay as a guest? Don't go to that member status. If, its invading on your privacy.

Because you cannot post in the Jediism forum if you aren't a member, which is arguably why you are here in the first place.

Arisaig wrote: Agreed with Sven. There is no requirement to become a member unless you want to move up in this community. You can do the entire IP and participate in a majority of the forums as a guest... and if you want to make the next step after that, then you can submit your application.

You can't get the novice status change, either, unless you are a member.

I keep forgetting to thank you for raising this question, Asakura. By addressing your concerns, I hope I am not conveying the impression that I don't think this a debate worth having, or that there might not be a better way to reach for due diligence of this kind.

Asakura Shoji wrote:

Arisaig wrote: Agreed with Sven. There is no requirement to become a member unless you want to move up in this community. You can do the entire IP and participate in a majority of the forums as a guest... and if you want to make the next step after that, then you can submit your application.

You can't get the novice status change, either, unless you are a member.

The novice status change is only important when you wish to continue moving up here. It's showing other members (Knights specifically) that you're doing the IP, so they can follow your progress and see if you would be a potential fit to be one of their apprentices.

Atticus wrote: I keep forgetting to thank you for raising this question, Asakura. By addressing your concerns, I hope I am not conveying the impression that I don't think this a debate worth having, or that there might not be a better way to reach for due diligence of this kind.

Thank you, Atticus. I appreciate that.

I am raising this question because as someone with nothing criminal to hide, I still felt uncomfortable when I read that. It's kind of like...I know I don't have any contraband in my car, but I'd still be upset if police pulled me over and randomly searched my vehicle, right? There is an invasion of privacy aspect at play and the information may not be legally protected (if it's not protected by clergy-parishioner privilege).

I'm not saying I don't understand wanting to keep pedophiles away from children. However, as many of you all pointed out they could either lie on the app or simply participate in many facets of the website without the app, anyway. Which means that question offers you zero protection at all if someone intends to do harm. Meanwhile, how many potential members who have done wrong, walked through that fire, repented, and are now on a path of redemption and goodness have simply walked away when they saw that on the app? You'll never know.

Nami wrote:

Asakura Shoji wrote:

Arisaig wrote: Agreed with Sven. There is no requirement to become a member unless you want to move up in this community. You can do the entire IP and participate in a majority of the forums as a guest... and if you want to make the next step after that, then you can submit your application.

You can't get the novice status change, either, unless you are a member.

The novice status change is only important when you wish to continue moving up here. It's showing other members (Knights specifically) that you're doing the IP, so they can follow your progress and see if you would be a potential fit to be one of their apprentices.

Right, and as someone who wanted to do the IP, then it would be important to me. I don't want to be a guest forever while working on the IP, right? I don't want to have to do the whole IP without being able to discuss Jediism on the forums. That kind of pressures me to disclose right away.

People say, we don't have enough information on you yet to know if we can trust you to be part of this group. That's fair, but I say, I don't have enough information on you yet, either, to know if I can trust you with that level of information. In my short time here, I've seen tempers flare and bad behavior and you all want me to trust you with that personal information? I wish I could know no one would use it vindictively, but I cannot be certain of that. I mean, that's all part of why we have this thread, yes?

Just about all the people here wouldn't have access to that information. If it was used vindictively, I'm sure there's some kinda of legal action someone could take.

Although, I do think that only letting members talk about Jediism is a bit weird to me.

Asakura Shoji wrote: Meanwhile, how many potential members who have done wrong, walked through that fire, repented, and are now on a path of redemption and goodness have simply walked away when they saw that on the app? You'll never know.

That's a fair point. If that number is not zero, and I grant it may not be, we should be mindful of the tension between that potential effect and our obligation to perform due diligence before accepting new members.

FWIW, and this shouldn't mean much in the greater scheme of the discussion, but I do know of at least one person who answered that question instead of walking away. My own redemptive arc involves owning up to my own past mistakes.

Nami wrote: Just about all the people here wouldn't have access to that information. If it was used vindictively, I'm sure there's some kinda of legal action someone could take.

We can't even tell for certain who changed someone's avatar. How would I know who used that information vindictively? If there's no guarantee it's protected information (clergy-parishioner privilege), I may not have any legal footing, anyway, as it was freely supplied.

Some background on me--I was stalked and threatened at home, at work, and online for years by one person who was able to find and dox me based on information I had supplied to a website we were both members of. It was incredibly difficult to track him and prove who he actually was, and it was crazy hard to bring law enforcement on board when the vast majority of the harassment was virtual. Does that mean I'll never supply personal information again? Of course I will, and in fact because of that I use my real name pretty much everywhere anymore, because I know how fragile my privacy actually is. I may as well disclose on my own terms. But I'd like to know who can see it, or what group of people can see it, at least, and know that I, too, have some protections in place. That's an educated decision I may be better off making after some time here, rather than shortly after I walk through the door, right?

Asakura Shoji wrote:

Nami wrote: Just about all the people here wouldn't have access to that information. If it was used vindictively, I'm sure there's some kinda of legal action someone could take.

We can't even tell for certain who changed someone's avatar. How would I know who used that information vindictively?

This is a very good point.

From my understanding the membership application was introduced before SW Ep. VII was released to cut down the workload for the membership team and to find those that were willing to wait 7 days... to separate the wheat from the chaff so to speak. Its not used to find people who've commtted crimes and keep them from joining.

This is a church. A church doesn't turn those who are broken and done broken things in their life, it accepts those that are willing to admit past wrongs and grow again.

Atticus wrote:

Asakura Shoji wrote: Meanwhile, how many potential members who have done wrong, walked through that fire, repented, and are now on a path of redemption and goodness have simply walked away when they saw that on the app? You'll never know.

That's a fair point. If that number is not zero, and I grant it may not be, we should be mindful of the tension between that potential effect and our obligation to perform due diligence before accepting new members.

FWIW, and this shouldn't mean much in the greater scheme of the discussion, but I do know of at least one person who answered that question instead of walking away. My own redemptive arc involves owning up to my own past mistakes.

Which is brave, and wonderful, and awesome, and I very truly sincerely mean that.

If people are ready to do that when they first walk in the door, great. If they are not, then I am thinking some time around here may be just what they need to help them take that deep breath and move forward.

I guess, at the core, it says something about me that I'd rather know that people around me include those who have made those big changes. I do not want people to be excluded. I want people to find a place where they can get stronger and rise up and face those demons and find their freedom from them. I find that path more powerful and inspiring than someone who just toed the line forever and never had reason to do any deep personal introspection.