How to Better Look After Newcomers?

Asakura Shoji wrote:

Arisaig wrote: Agreed with Sven. There is no requirement to become a member unless you want to move up in this community. You can do the entire IP and participate in a majority of the forums as a guest... and if you want to make the next step after that, then you can submit your application.

You can't get the novice status change, either, unless you are a member.

The novice status change is only important when you wish to continue moving up here. It's showing other members (Knights specifically) that you're doing the IP, so they can follow your progress and see if you would be a potential fit to be one of their apprentices.

Atticus wrote: I keep forgetting to thank you for raising this question, Asakura. By addressing your concerns, I hope I am not conveying the impression that I don't think this a debate worth having, or that there might not be a better way to reach for due diligence of this kind.

Thank you, Atticus. I appreciate that.

I am raising this question because as someone with nothing criminal to hide, I still felt uncomfortable when I read that. It's kind of like...I know I don't have any contraband in my car, but I'd still be upset if police pulled me over and randomly searched my vehicle, right? There is an invasion of privacy aspect at play and the information may not be legally protected (if it's not protected by clergy-parishioner privilege).

I'm not saying I don't understand wanting to keep pedophiles away from children. However, as many of you all pointed out they could either lie on the app or simply participate in many facets of the website without the app, anyway. Which means that question offers you zero protection at all if someone intends to do harm. Meanwhile, how many potential members who have done wrong, walked through that fire, repented, and are now on a path of redemption and goodness have simply walked away when they saw that on the app? You'll never know.

Nami wrote:

Asakura Shoji wrote:

Arisaig wrote: Agreed with Sven. There is no requirement to become a member unless you want to move up in this community. You can do the entire IP and participate in a majority of the forums as a guest... and if you want to make the next step after that, then you can submit your application.

You can't get the novice status change, either, unless you are a member.

The novice status change is only important when you wish to continue moving up here. It's showing other members (Knights specifically) that you're doing the IP, so they can follow your progress and see if you would be a potential fit to be one of their apprentices.

Right, and as someone who wanted to do the IP, then it would be important to me. I don't want to be a guest forever while working on the IP, right? I don't want to have to do the whole IP without being able to discuss Jediism on the forums. That kind of pressures me to disclose right away.

People say, we don't have enough information on you yet to know if we can trust you to be part of this group. That's fair, but I say, I don't have enough information on you yet, either, to know if I can trust you with that level of information. In my short time here, I've seen tempers flare and bad behavior and you all want me to trust you with that personal information? I wish I could know no one would use it vindictively, but I cannot be certain of that. I mean, that's all part of why we have this thread, yes?

Just about all the people here wouldn't have access to that information. If it was used vindictively, I'm sure there's some kinda of legal action someone could take.

Although, I do think that only letting members talk about Jediism is a bit weird to me.

Asakura Shoji wrote: Meanwhile, how many potential members who have done wrong, walked through that fire, repented, and are now on a path of redemption and goodness have simply walked away when they saw that on the app? You'll never know.

That's a fair point. If that number is not zero, and I grant it may not be, we should be mindful of the tension between that potential effect and our obligation to perform due diligence before accepting new members.

FWIW, and this shouldn't mean much in the greater scheme of the discussion, but I do know of at least one person who answered that question instead of walking away. My own redemptive arc involves owning up to my own past mistakes.

Nami wrote: Just about all the people here wouldn't have access to that information. If it was used vindictively, I'm sure there's some kinda of legal action someone could take.

We can't even tell for certain who changed someone's avatar. How would I know who used that information vindictively? If there's no guarantee it's protected information (clergy-parishioner privilege), I may not have any legal footing, anyway, as it was freely supplied.

Some background on me--I was stalked and threatened at home, at work, and online for years by one person who was able to find and dox me based on information I had supplied to a website we were both members of. It was incredibly difficult to track him and prove who he actually was, and it was crazy hard to bring law enforcement on board when the vast majority of the harassment was virtual. Does that mean I'll never supply personal information again? Of course I will, and in fact because of that I use my real name pretty much everywhere anymore, because I know how fragile my privacy actually is. I may as well disclose on my own terms. But I'd like to know who can see it, or what group of people can see it, at least, and know that I, too, have some protections in place. That's an educated decision I may be better off making after some time here, rather than shortly after I walk through the door, right?

Asakura Shoji wrote:

Nami wrote: Just about all the people here wouldn't have access to that information. If it was used vindictively, I'm sure there's some kinda of legal action someone could take.

We can't even tell for certain who changed someone's avatar. How would I know who used that information vindictively?

This is a very good point.

From my understanding the membership application was introduced before SW Ep. VII was released to cut down the workload for the membership team and to find those that were willing to wait 7 days... to separate the wheat from the chaff so to speak. Its not used to find people who've commtted crimes and keep them from joining.

This is a church. A church doesn't turn those who are broken and done broken things in their life, it accepts those that are willing to admit past wrongs and grow again.

Atticus wrote:

Asakura Shoji wrote: Meanwhile, how many potential members who have done wrong, walked through that fire, repented, and are now on a path of redemption and goodness have simply walked away when they saw that on the app? You'll never know.

That's a fair point. If that number is not zero, and I grant it may not be, we should be mindful of the tension between that potential effect and our obligation to perform due diligence before accepting new members.

FWIW, and this shouldn't mean much in the greater scheme of the discussion, but I do know of at least one person who answered that question instead of walking away. My own redemptive arc involves owning up to my own past mistakes.

Which is brave, and wonderful, and awesome, and I very truly sincerely mean that.

If people are ready to do that when they first walk in the door, great. If they are not, then I am thinking some time around here may be just what they need to help them take that deep breath and move forward.

I guess, at the core, it says something about me that I'd rather know that people around me include those who have made those big changes. I do not want people to be excluded. I want people to find a place where they can get stronger and rise up and face those demons and find their freedom from them. I find that path more powerful and inspiring than someone who just toed the line forever and never had reason to do any deep personal introspection.

Also I should add, the membership application is not to become a member of Jediism, but a member of this church.

In the protestant church there is a membership process as well. We need to know about our membership before you can become part of this church.

But that does not stop you from being a Jedi, or a part of Jediism.

Quite honestly, I balked pretty hard at the questions on the application as well...and hesitated for several weeks before submitting mine, for much of the same reasons you have raised here Asakura Shoko.

Still not quite sure what the tipping point was that convinced me to take the risk...but I had many of the same questions and many if the same answers through some PM and chat interactions...probably with many of those participating in this thread.

I know my experience is unhelpful in resolving the question...but probably helps in conveying the sentiment that you are not alone in your reactions or concerns at all.

Arisaig wrote: From my understanding the membership application was introduced before SW Ep. VII was released to cut down the workload for the membership team and to find those that were willing to wait 7 days... to separate the wheat from the chaff so to speak.

Actually, this sort of brings me around to what was going to be one of my original questions/points in this thread. Isn't there some way to automate new member emails and stuff? I mean, it's great that Brick sent me a PM, but I would be none the wiser if that was a site-automated message and not something Brick had probably mostly copy/pasted.

You can also have your larger groups of people, like Novices or Apprentices, be the primary welcoming committee, to take some of the pressure off those higher-ups who already have a ton on their plates.

I had ideas about a lot of this written out but got sidetracked by the app question of jaw-droppingness and started with that instead.

SamThift wrote: Quite honestly, I balked pretty hard at the questions on the application as well...and hesitated for several weeks before submitting mine, for much of the same reasons you have raised here Asakura Shoko.

Still not quite sure what the tipping point was that convinced me to take the risk...but I had many of the same questions and many if the same answers through some PM and chat interactions...probably with many of those participating in this thread.

I know my experience is unhelpful in resolving the question...but probably helps in conveying the sentiment that you are not alone in your reactions or concerns at all.

Thank you for this. I was, indeed, feeling a little lonely.

That having been said, I'm kind of always the person who points out the big elephant in the room that people are trying to avoid talking about, or who mentions the emperor is not wearing any clothes, so feeling that way is nothing new. It's rare, but so very nice, when someone else also says, "You know, you're not entirely crazy..."

Slightly off-topic, but I forgot to say...

Atticus wrote: As a public defender...

That's an insanely difficult job in so many ways. It's also one of the most Jedi kind of jobs, at least how I define being a Jedi. Hats off to you.

I more or less ignored the membership question until I achieved a comfort with the place, and found my expected gain to be greater than the implied risk.

I was still somewhat uneasy though.

If anything, it may be worth it to review the question in whole, and see what the law actually requires alongside what best practices are in general.

Disclaimer: if I touch a point that's been answer already, I apologize. Im replying in a very limited period of time. If I'm wrong about anything below, I welcome a councilor to come in and set the record straight.

Shoji, the only people who have access to the information are the Membership Officer(s) (currently filled by John), John, and possibly Ren. As John is currently the owner of TOTJO, he holds a legal responsibility to take steps to protect the member base. If he wants to know ahead of time if someone has a criminal background, then that's his prerogative. If something were to happen to one of the minors here, for example, he has a right to be able to defend himself and say "I took what steps I could to make sure they were safe."

Background checks are, from what I've been told, required of all individuals who work with sensitive information. I'm fairly certain that this applies to at least Youth Officers and Security Officers, but I could be wrong.

The application as a whole - this is supposedly necessary for TOTJO to maintain a legal religious organizations status for tax purposes within the US. I guess the IRS tracks numbers to make sure that organizations don't try to fraudulently claim exemption status. I'm not sure. Either way, the application as it currently stands has been there since I joined four-ish years ago (or 3... I can't remember if I joined in 2013 or 2014). The only part that has changed is requiring people to wait a week before submitting it. But that question has always been there.

Finally, answering positively to that question does not preclude anyone from becoming a member. The only purpose it serves is to protect the general membership, not exclude. We have members who have admitted publicly to some former crime or another; some of them have gone in to become senior knights or councilors at some point or another.

And again, you can participate in the site and complete the IP without ever submitting the application. It only becomes necessary for membership at TOTJO, which is only necessary to become an initiate... Or basically an apprentice really. Otherwise, participation in the site is fairly open.

Also... I feel a bit that this has come to the point of derailing and should probably be it's own topic.

Just my two cents about the membership app: I didn't think twice about answering the criminal background question. Maybe I should have. Maybe I've become so used to the culture of sharing online that I've forgotten proper boundaries. But for me, the whole significance of joining TOTJO lies in placing my trust in the community, in feeling comfortable to share the deepest details of my personal development in my IP journal. Without that from the very beginning, this place wouldn't mean anything to me. And really, anyone could find out my criminal background from just my name and address if they wanted to.

On the topic of looking after Newcomers better I have two more thoughts. Thought one - chat. I get lucky about 1 in 3 times in chat. I've met some brilliant people through chat; they like crispy pastry on pies, excessive waffle toppings; trains, swords, crafts... the temple is made up of all sorts. Chat is a great resource for newcomers to get the know the temple - I feel more open to the place after starting to log in there - but sometimes it's just me and the crickets.

Second thought - calendar of events - maybe there is one already; but I've not found it yet. It'd be great to have one if there isn't one, and maybe we could make it part of "IP Lesson 0, Temple structure" to know where it is. the temple is not just the people, but the things it does - sermons, knighthoods, special commemorative days etc. being able to attend one of those would probably give newcomers a better idea of the place; and less a sense of "oh, something happened yesterday! I did not know about it, looked interesting".

Twigga wrote: On the topic of looking after Newcomers better I have two more thoughts. Thought one - chat. I get lucky about 1 in 3 times in chat. I've met some brilliant people through chat; they like crispy pastry on pies, excessive waffle toppings; trains, swords, crafts... the temple is made up of all sorts. Chat is a great resource for newcomers to get the know the temple - I feel more open to the place after starting to log in there - but sometimes it's just me and the crickets.

For the record...fried chicken is not an "excessive waffle topping"

Otherwise, two great points!