Perception, confirmation bias, and listening to opposing views.

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6 years 9 months ago #286974 by MadHatter

Alethea Thompson wrote:
It's upsetting to feel like you, as a person, are not recognized for what you say you are. Some people do not identify as their race. While others are deeply connected to that aspect of their culture, their ancestry, etc. For the former (which you tend to find more in the military than other groups) they don't want to see race, so it hurts them to be identified as such. For latter, it hurts that people will not acknowledge their culture they love so much, and take great pride in. It can be difficult to identify which group an individual falls into (colorblind vs color-vibrant), but we can learn by paying attention to them, and trying to understand how they want to be viewed.


Thank you for your comment but the bolded part in particular. I realize this could indeed contribute to my own blindness in areas as I am a veteran and tend to have a very military mindset about a lot of things. For example, when I come here I just see Jedi, not a black Jedi or a gay Jedi just Jedi. Same as I would with any veteran or active service member. I see the uniform and that means they are family nothing else. However, this is a blind spot that does lead to me failing to recognize other areas of people's lives that they might place more importance on than I do with said area in my own life.

Knight of the Order
Training Master: Jestor
Apprentices: Lama Su, Leah
Just a pop culture Jedi doing what I can
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6 years 9 months ago #286975 by MadHatter

Rosalyn J wrote:

MadHatter wrote:

Rosalyn J wrote:


Maybe later we will talk about other things but for now, all I can say is I hear your pain. Im probably not someone you want to even hear right now so i wont say anything else. I hear your pain. And there are people here genuinely care about you.


Thats it. Thats all I wanted. Thats all many people want. Not with qualifiers, not with quantifiers, not with appeals to logic, but...just to look at this part of the Creed and show it in that moment:

I am a Jedi...I shall never seek so much to be consoled as to console, to be understood as to understand, to be loved as to love..."

We, who have nothing to lose by taking a step back to listen should yeild our space to the person in pain.

Later, when we are both, or all calm, we can have a conversation, but for now...listening, consoling, understanding, loving, those are paramount.


I think in real life it's easier to know when to apply that advice and even then I feel its going to harder for men to see the signs. Men in my experience tend to want to fix things or get to a solution when a problem or debate crops up. So when someone posts an issue for me unless it's in somewhere like rants or the support/well wishes section I tend to believe the person wants to debate or a response.
But that aside you have a going point. The question I have is how do we realize when this is what the person needs. Sometimes I just want my issues heard and sometimes I need someone to give advice or tell me I am being a prat. And considering that sometimes I can be pretty dang thick and need a good verbal back and forth that may get heated before I get it how do we know when to just listen and when a person needs the proverbial boot?
Those questions are genuine in every sense of the word. Because that is something I tend to struggle with. It's also maybe something we should keep in mind that people tend to want to help us even if all we are looking for is to be heard.


I'm thinking on your question Hatter. And I'm thinking on the thread as a whole. I'm glad this discussion is happening. I'll share more when its not my pumpkin hour.

Ok normally I hate to duel post but I have to ask.... pumpkin hour?

Knight of the Order
Training Master: Jestor
Apprentices: Lama Su, Leah
Just a pop culture Jedi doing what I can

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6 years 9 months ago #286976 by Rosalyn J
The party is over I'm going to bed.

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6 years 9 months ago #286977 by MadHatter

Rosalyn J wrote: The party is over I'm going to bed.


Ooooooh it was a Cinderella reference. LOL got ya rest well. MTFBWY

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Apprentices: Lama Su, Leah
Just a pop culture Jedi doing what I can

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6 years 9 months ago #287263 by Rosalyn J
MadHatter Wrote:

But that aside you have a going point. The question I have is how do we realize when this is what the person needs. Sometimes I just want my issues heard and sometimes I need someone to give advice or tell me I am being a prat. And considering that sometimes I can be pretty dang thick and need a good verbal back and forth that may get heated before I get it how do we know when to just listen and when a person needs the proverbial boot?
Those questions are genuine in every sense of the word. Because that is something I tend to struggle with. It's also maybe something we should keep in mind that people tend to want to help us even if all we are looking for is to be heard.


I have given some thought to this question and I think the answer is simple. You ask how can we know and I say ask "how can I help you?", "In this moment, what do you need?"
I realize after some thinking that it may be unfair to ask the whole temple to engage in this, yet it would be nice. But it seems we have a group that might be better suited for these type of regular conversations, the one on one support needed for the individual pouring their soul out, or feeling attacked, this group is the clergy.


As to the other parts of the thread, I've thought long and hard about posting examples of certain language that might hurt with an explanation and an example from other, recent threads, but I (re)realized, for I knew it before, that this is not the best way to go about this. I'm not here to police language or discussion. A sanitazed environment is just as dangerous as a free and open one, but for different reasons. If we say "this or that word" isn't allowed, we haven't changed the psyche of the person using it, we have only stopped them from using the word, not having the sentiment. People have to get to know people beyond the labels we use to define ourselves or others.

This doesn't change the fact that words can and do hurt, and we may have the best intentions when we say them, but that doesn't take away the pain of the words. The words some call hurtful, hurt because they belittle or demean or insult their individual experience or those within their group. They hurt because someone else, not you, used them in a hurtful way. So what may actually be happening when we say those words is someone remembering that hurtful experience. What is hurtful to me may not be hurtful to another. For example, I don't mind if you call me "crazy", my friend minds a lot because others called her that while they detained her and isolated her in institutions.Out of respect for her I don't use that or other words she has kindly asked me not to use. I can still have the same sentiment, but I can use different words to express it. For example, if I want to say that I had a crazy or insane amount of homework, but those two words offend her, I can say "what I meant was 'I had more homework than I could've possibly imagined'" or "I was completely overwhelmed by the amount of homework I had". Its hard to find words that pack the right punch, but its more than that. Its a fundamental question of respect. I'm not asking you to censor yourselves and I won't try to censor you. But again, turn your mind back to the Creed:

"I shall never seek so much to be consoled as to console, to be understood as to understand, to be loved as to love"

Another interesting quote:
“When someone tells you that you have done something that has hurt them, you don’t get to decide that you didn’t.”
― Karon Waddell

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6 years 9 months ago #287265 by Locksley

We are all the sum of our tears. Too little and the ground is not fertile, and nothing can grow there. Too much, the best of us is washed away. -- J. Michael Straczynski, Babylon 5

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6 years 9 months ago #287278 by Tellahane

Rosalyn J wrote: I realize after some thinking that it may be unfair to ask the whole temple to engage in this, yet it would be nice. But it seems we have a group that might be better suited for these type of regular conversations, the one on one support needed for the individual pouring their soul out, or feeling attacked, this group is the clergy.

I kind of wish there was a way to set up the forum(I know this can be done on other forum webwear) Where you as a non-clergy, can not see posts in that forum other then your own. You can go in there, create a thread, spill your guts out or questions or whatever, anyone who is clergy can see all the posts and respond accordingly, but only other clergy and the person who made the post can read it.

This would be an excellent way to serve the need of a place you can go to vent and get feedback from a support system here at the temple.

Rosalyn J wrote: As to the other parts of the thread, I've thought long and hard about posting examples of certain language that might hurt with an explanation and an example from other, recent threads, but I (re)realized, for I knew it before, that this is not the best way to go about this. I'm not here to police language or discussion. A sanitazed environment is just as dangerous as a free and open one, but for different reasons. If we say "this or that word" isn't allowed, we haven't changed the psyche of the person using it, we have only stopped them from using the word, not having the sentiment. People have to get to know people beyond the labels we use to define ourselves or others.

This doesn't change the fact that words can and do hurt, and we may have the best intentions when we say them, but that doesn't take away the pain of the words. The words some call hurtful, hurt because they belittle or demean or insult their individual experience or those within their group. They hurt because someone else, not you, used them in a hurtful way. So what may actually be happening when we say those words is someone remembering that hurtful experience. What is hurtful to me may not be hurtful to another. For example, I don't mind if you call me "crazy", my friend minds a lot because others called her that while they detained her and isolated her in institutions.Out of respect for her I don't use that or other words she has kindly asked me not to use. I can still have the same sentiment, but I can use different words to express it. For example, if I want to say that I had a crazy or insane amount of homework, but those two words offend her, I can say "what I meant was 'I had more homework than I could've possibly imagined'" or "I was completely overwhelmed by the amount of homework I had". Its hard to find words that pack the right punch, but its more than that. Its a fundamental question of respect. I'm not asking you to censor yourselves and I won't try to censor you. But again, turn your mind back to the Creed:

"I shall never seek so much to be consoled as to console, to be understood as to understand, to be loved as to love"

Another interesting quote:
“When someone tells you that you have done something that has hurt them, you don’t get to decide that you didn’t.”
― Karon Waddell


I strongly agree with everything you put here, and I'm glad you mentioned that quote. The only thing I want to add to this is don't stop there!

So Yes, words can hurt. While I or anyone else are in control of what words come out of our mouths, like you point out we are not in control of whether those words are hurtful or not to you. Though I would better explain it as we are not in control of how those words get interpreted at all. I could walk into a room and say "Good Morning" to everyone in it, and be hurtful because everyone in it just suffered the loss of a loved one 20 minutes ago, and I have no idea that it went on. Is it my fault for not knowing or saying, most would say no because it was with the best of intentions, is it their fault for being hurt by it though? Some will be upset some won't, some that won't understand the intent of my words, some that do are too overcome with the loss to even think about it.

Now if I know a person, or a community well enough and I Want to intentionally speak words that I know will get them riled up I can probably do that, but even if I'm trying my best its still up to the person or the community itself to react to what I say or not, to interpret it however they want to. I could know a person and know a community and want to say the nicest things remotely possible and have it rub someone raw and hurt them because of something I'm not even remotely aware of that is very personnel to them that they don't even share.

It still however comes down to the person receiving the words and how they chose to interpret those words, whether with intent for good or intent for malice etc.

So from my point of view, and personal opinion of this, and I've spent a good deal of time observing this area of human interaction but by no means an expert, I would say from a personal standpoint, taking the time and training to be self-aware of how one feels whenever another speaks words(not all the time just when it might be significant such as something that would hurt a lot) one needs to take a briefest of moments and ask, was that really directed at me specifically, or was that just the subject of some discussion, or someone else's personal view where they may not understand why this is bothering me or so on?

Maybe its my OCD or who knows what other mental problems I have but that process goes through my head every time, before I ever write a response or respond to a text message or even respond verbally, but that's me and everyone is different. I do find however that helps me resolve a lot of the anger issues I used to have way back in the day. It wasn't easy at first but with time it just becomes a reflex and there are very few things left in this world that ever really annoy or anger me and it is usually is related to someone else neglecting proper patient care or something where I need to advocate on behalf of someone else. There just some few pet peeves I have a really hard time of getting rid of.

I don't know I just feel like more of it is in our control then we realize, and once you realize it, which is the hardest part of it all, it's not so hard in the end. I don't mean to make that sound condescending at all just another perspective on it from personal experience, of which I can't fairly compare to anyone else's just merely share.
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6 years 9 months ago #287439 by Rosalyn J
We hashed your idea out in Skype Tellahane. Its certainly a good one, but there were some snags. What do you think of this alternative: https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/Clergy/118486-confidant-session-form#287438

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