Perception, confirmation bias, and listening to opposing views.

MadHatter wrote: One last thing before I go to bed. If I came off as dismissive or condescending to any views voiced here I want to state clearly this was not my intent. I am currently trying to figure out a balance between coming off as hearing a person but disagreeing and coming off as a jerk that just wants to argue. Which has the effect of sometimes making me sound like I am being pretentious or condescending. (Which is why I hate feeling the need to watch my language as I tend to be pretty blunt and crass in real life and thus I can feel unnatural when trying to be more refined) So I hope that is not the case here. I am trying to be more open and understanding while voicing why I am not fully on board with ideas/views and I hope that is coming through

Don't worry , better a bit blunt and expressing your real thoughts than use flowery generic language that could or could not be wrong and lose the point , and you certainly dont come of as a jerk to me , we try to get an understanding here , sometimes we need a bit more tact sometimes we need to consider other peoples feelings and try to be more emphatic , but sometimes a blunt sword is all we can wield sleep well Jedi

Amyntas wrote:

MadHatter wrote: One last thing before I go to bed. If I came off as dismissive or condescending to any views voiced here I want to state clearly this was not my intent. I am currently trying to figure out a balance between coming off as hearing a person but disagreeing and coming off as a jerk that just wants to argue. Which has the effect of sometimes making me sound like I am being pretentious or condescending. (Which is why I hate feeling the need to watch my language as I tend to be pretty blunt and crass in real life and thus I can feel unnatural when trying to be more refined) So I hope that is not the case here. I am trying to be more open and understanding while voicing why I am not fully on board with ideas/views and I hope that is coming through

Don't worry , better a bit blunt and expressing your real thoughts than use flowery generic language that could or could not be wrong and lose the point , and you certainly dont come of as a jerk to me , we try to get an understanding here , sometimes we need a bit more tact sometimes we need to consider other peoples feelings and try to be more emphatic , but sometimes a blunt sword is all we can wield sleep well Jedi

If there is one thing I've learned over the years is never to tell anyone that something will work 100% or something is 100% this, or that. Because everyone's different, everyone has a different physiology, everyone has a different mental prowess as it were. I can suggest away on what might work for me, or for a number of people I've worked with or a giant crowd of people but there is never EVER a guarantee that something could be always right and work for any one individual. That might seem obvious to you or me but not everyone see's it that way, or may not see it that way yet. So I will always give a possibility that something I suggest may not work. It may or may not work for a large variety for reasons.

IF you want a really good example take a patient I had last year, having severe pain from a broken humoral head and clavical combo(read as severe shoulder injury). The paramedic I was with said he was going to take the pain away for sure, swore on it. Gave the maximum possible dose for pain medication we can give on the back of an ambulance, didn't even touch the pain. How well did the patient trust us after that for the rest of the call.....didn't trust us at all.

Same thing can be talked about for feelings as well. I Can't promise that meditation for example is going to fix everything but I know it has worked for some, I know it has worked for me, so there could be a good chance it will work for you so I will state it as such. Yeah the verbiage isn't what you are looking for we all wish we had the answer handed to us sometimes but the "fact"(or maybe better read the practicality) of life is everything "Could or Could not be" from any one person to the next.

Rosalyn J wrote:

Based on several conversations that have gone on over the course of the last week and a half or so I decided to make this to speak on my own experiences and how I see things. The first thing we have to realize is that when dealing with large groups of people lumping the entire groups as complicit in this that or the third is not only patently false but unfair and not going to get us listened to. Coming at people accusing them of things will not get you heard. I do not care how just you think your cause is you will not be listened to. It's that simple. Start from anger and it's going to be reflected back. No one that feels attacked from the get go is going to feel like hearing you out.

The above seems like a great space to come from. However, there is something patently wrong with that argument. We have forgotten whether the person who is attacking feels attacked themselves. The feeling of attack comes from the language we use to discuss the issue.

Below there is strong language which could potentially offend, activate or cause considerable stress, but is intended to demonstrate a point and has come from my own life experience

Warning: Spoiler!

-Once my sister in-law said of a NFL football player "He's so fine! Too bad he is a dick licker"
-My mother's girl-friend said to me, "I don't want you to get offended, but your brother just does nigger shit"
-Friends and family have said to me or around me "You are/She is retarded/delayed/deformed etc."

In each of these instances, there is strong, offensive language directly pointed at: individuals who are gay, individuals who are black, individuals who are disabled.

Now, suppose that sort of language went on for hours and hours and I happened to be in earshot. I listen, but I don't say anything for a while, but I am shocked that as a person who identifies with the groups, that no one has asked my opinion. There is a break in the conversation and I pick up some courage and insert myself:

Strong, potentially offensive language

Warning: Spoiler!

To my mother's girlfriend I say, "You can't say that! How the fuck do you think that makes me feel! My brother is NOT a nigger! ". To which she replies "Yes he is! And besides, I wasn't talking to you or about you, I was talking to your sister! We were having a conversation."

To my sister in law I say "Can you please not call people 'dicklickers"? that language is offensive. To which she replies "Whatever Rosalyn. You're so sensitive. I can't say anything"

To others who say "You are/She is retarded/delayed/deformed etc." I say "I don't like it when you call me that. Those words are offensive. They have said "Don't even go there! Its part of your diagnosis. It says mildly mentally retarded. Here, read it! And "Well, You don't walk like a normal person. "

You'll forgive me if I get a little angry after being dismissed. And I think what sets me off personally is that this is my family, these are my friends. They never asked me, "hey what's it like being black?" Or "what's it like being queer (surprise for those of you who didn't know ) Or what's it like being disabled?" So they don't know that every time I hear those words (or words like them), I shrink a little into myself. I put up a wall. Every time those words, or words like those are spoken, I feel tremendous pain and belittling.

I go out into the world and hear similar sentiments from strangers. What they say to me, it stings, but they don't have a bearing on my life. I'm not connected with them in anyway. If I make a request and they listen, maybe we can open up a wider dialogue about why their language was so troubling, they could rephrase the issue and we can start a dialogue. Hey, look! Education. I help them share in my experience, they help me share in theirs.

Its important because the way they talk about topics concerning groups I am a part of influences laws, elections and other aspects of society in which the opinion of the public is considered. I can help to refine their view by sharing my experience and they can then make more informed choices.

But if I make a request of them and they don't listen, but continue talking, I can walk away. It isn't such a big deal.

If, however, the language occurs in a space that I value, that has connections for me: my workplace, my home, my Temple, I place a greater value on the connections and so I might spend a bit more time trying to get my point across. But with every deflection, I feel less and less heard, I shout a little louder. I value my connections, but I am also in pain. I am asking you to listen to me.

...

Ah, now you will listen, but it has to be on your terms. I have to be completely calm and reasonable while you dissect my responses. I can't be angry at all. Not allowed. Otherwise I won't be heard. And I am not just talking to one person. Everybody is around me at a table (I have had this experience too) and it feels like me against the world. Their motives may be pure, but there are so many of them, their eyes all trained on me. So now, not only am I in pain, I'm also on edge. You know what it feels like? Like being an animal in a cage with all these gawkers around. I'm on display. The exotic Rosalyn will now share her experience. I don't like that feeling either. I much prefer a space where I feel on equal footing. It's not that I am not capable of having discussions, but right now, it would do wonders for me, and for the educational opportunity if we simply had this conversation one on one.

You don't have to do anything. I am asking you to make a sacrifice.

You say to me "speak softly and we will hear you". But why am I being called to adjust? I, the one in pain, have to put that aside? I wasn't angry before you basically said I was making a big deal out of nothing, now I am angry. Maybe you should have not made assumptions about my feelings of offense. You don't have anything to lose by looking at my pain.

You say to me "speak softly". I say to you "Listen intently. Listen and believe me".

Maybe later we will talk about other things but for now, all I can say is I hear your pain. Im probably not someone you want to even hear right now so i wont say anything else. I hear your pain. And there are people here genuinely care about you.

I think this is a great conversation and I am glad people are participating in it.

Maybe later we will talk about other things but for now, all I can say is I hear your pain. Im probably not someone you want to even hear right now so i wont say anything else. I hear your pain. And there are people here genuinely care about you.

Thats it. Thats all I wanted. Thats all many people want. Not with qualifiers, not with quantifiers, not with appeals to logic, but...just to look at this part of the Creed and show it in that moment:

I am a Jedi...I shall never seek so much to be consoled as to console, to be understood as to understand, to be loved as to love..."

We, who have nothing to lose by taking a step back to listen should yeild our space to the person in pain.

Later, when we are both, or all calm, we can have a conversation, but for now...listening, consoling, understanding, loving, those are paramount.

Rosalyn, I wanted to put this out there because I see where on of my comments (in another thread) may have come off as a personal call for you to temper anger in response to something I don't understand. That can be seen and taken as personal attack and this was not my intent, after consideration I should have stated it better so please accept my apology for that.

I think the most important thing in what we should look at is all of these three mixed. Understanding of our own perspective helps us with defeating perception, confirmation bias and helps us to listen to other views. The thing is we really have to be the ones to drop our egos for information to stick (not the presenter but the listeners). Perspective is a product of ego, it will always be there but to suppress it well other speak allows a much more likely absorption of the stimuli they are trying to relate. Sorry, I know that sounds coldish. I have my experience of dealing with what people assume an alcoholic is. Believe me being open about recovering doesn't really put you on anyone's top hire list.

In Peace and Respect
Tim

I have been as guilty as anyone else of putting my argument before my ability to be compassionate or empathetic. It will probably happen again when I am frustrated or I've had one too many beers, but that is not an excuse for being selfish.

What I am learning from this conversation is that not everyone is looking for a solution. Not everyone wants answers. Not every conversation has to be a debate. Sometimes we just need to be heard and acknowledged without being told we are wrong or how we can do better.

For my part, I'll say this now. I will try to hear you before I speak, and I will try harder to acknowledge other people and their valued role in the conversation before I seek to validate my own thoughts and opinions.

And to you , Ros, I have believed that I knew you and I have heard you loud and clear before, but I see I was wrong about a few things. I have heard some of what you have to offer us, but there is clearly more wisdom there if I choose to listen more and speak less. Thank you for being strong in this conversation and sharing experiences that I'm sure were not easy to recount. I'm listening, and I hear you.

Rosalyn J wrote:

Maybe later we will talk about other things but for now, all I can say is I hear your pain. Im probably not someone you want to even hear right now so i wont say anything else. I hear your pain. And there are people here genuinely care about you.

Thats it. Thats all I wanted. Thats all many people want. Not with qualifiers, not with quantifiers, not with appeals to logic, but...just to look at this part of the Creed and show it in that moment:

I am a Jedi...I shall never seek so much to be consoled as to console, to be understood as to understand, to be loved as to love..."

We, who have nothing to lose by taking a step back to listen should yeild our space to the person in pain.

Later, when we are both, or all calm, we can have a conversation, but for now...listening, consoling, understanding, loving, those are paramount.

I think in real life it's easier to know when to apply that advice and even then I feel its going to harder for men to see the signs. Men in my experience tend to want to fix things or get to a solution when a problem or debate crops up. So when someone posts an issue for me unless it's in somewhere like rants or the support/well wishes section I tend to believe the person wants to debate or a response.
But that aside you have a going point. The question I have is how do we realize when this is what the person needs. Sometimes I just want my issues heard and sometimes I need someone to give advice or tell me I am being a prat. And considering that sometimes I can be pretty dang thick and need a good verbal back and forth that may get heated before I get it how do we know when to just listen and when a person needs the proverbial boot?
Those questions are genuine in every sense of the word. Because that is something I tend to struggle with. It's also maybe something we should keep in mind that people tend to want to help us even if all we are looking for is to be heard.

Some Go-En Thoughts (I haven't used that term since Force Realists Magazine )

It's hard to understand away your frustrations. Actually, I have one that makes me even more frustrated as I try to understand it: I'm a Female Veteran. My husband is also a veteran, but it upsets me when people acknowledge his service and not mine. They seem to think I'm some woman that is trying to take my husband's rank. That comes from male veterans and civilians alike.

It's upsetting to feel like you, as a person, are not recognized for what you say you are. Some people do not identify as their race. While others are deeply connected to that aspect of their culture, their ancestry, etc. For the former (which you tend to find more in the military than other groups) they don't want to see race, so it hurts them to be identified as such. For latter, it hurts that people will not acknowledge their culture they love so much, and take great pride in. It can be difficult to identify which group an individual falls into (colorblind vs color-vibrant), but we can learn by paying attention to them, and trying to understand how they want to be viewed.

I think it important to learn how people identify, let them talk until you get to know them. Give them a bit of yourself, but you're looking mostly for what it is that makes them them. The individual before you, is always a treasure to learn about, and can provide you with new information about different views in the world- from the cultural to the soul of the individual.

It's actually a lot easier to get to know someone, than it is to understand your frustrations away.

MadHatter wrote:

Rosalyn J wrote:

Maybe later we will talk about other things but for now, all I can say is I hear your pain. Im probably not someone you want to even hear right now so i wont say anything else. I hear your pain. And there are people here genuinely care about you.

Thats it. Thats all I wanted. Thats all many people want. Not with qualifiers, not with quantifiers, not with appeals to logic, but...just to look at this part of the Creed and show it in that moment:

I am a Jedi...I shall never seek so much to be consoled as to console, to be understood as to understand, to be loved as to love..."

We, who have nothing to lose by taking a step back to listen should yeild our space to the person in pain.

Later, when we are both, or all calm, we can have a conversation, but for now...listening, consoling, understanding, loving, those are paramount.

I think in real life it's easier to know when to apply that advice and even then I feel its going to harder for men to see the signs. Men in my experience tend to want to fix things or get to a solution when a problem or debate crops up. So when someone posts an issue for me unless it's in somewhere like rants or the support/well wishes section I tend to believe the person wants to debate or a response.
But that aside you have a going point. The question I have is how do we realize when this is what the person needs. Sometimes I just want my issues heard and sometimes I need someone to give advice or tell me I am being a prat. And considering that sometimes I can be pretty dang thick and need a good verbal back and forth that may get heated before I get it how do we know when to just listen and when a person needs the proverbial boot?
Those questions are genuine in every sense of the word. Because that is something I tend to struggle with. It's also maybe something we should keep in mind that people tend to want to help us even if all we are looking for is to be heard.

I'm thinking on your question Hatter. And I'm thinking on the thread as a whole. I'm glad this discussion is happening. I'll share more when its not my pumpkin hour.