Yoda

Okay. So Yoda is known for saying "Fear leads to Anger, Anger leads to Hate, and Hate leads to Suffering." At first I accepted this as truth. I accepted the idea that fear and anger will lead people to the dark side. But now with my own life experience, I find that this doesn't seem to be universal. I have one of those pleasant anxiety and depression comorbidities that psychologists call my inner hell that my mind can bring when I ruminate, catastrophize and brood. Although I admire Superman, I tend to be more like Batman. Yet, despite all of this, I still care deeply about my fellow brothers and sisters. I volunteer regularly and am a nursing student working towards becoming a registered nurse. So what am I missing here? I have searched within myself, and sometimes I have briefly hated people who make fun of my sister for having a disability, but this quickly subsides because I value the dignity of other people and believe that despite anything anyone believe or does, they are worthy of my respect. I don't have to trust or like them, but my respect goes to all. I condemn myself for times I have acted in anger and hurt others, but I have not acted out of hate, so suffering in my life doesn't seem to stem from hatred. Is there something I am not seeing that would help me understand Yoda's philosophy. I understand he is a fictional character, but I want to understand the ideology behind his words.

Thanks for your help

In effect, Yoda only got it half right. Anger does not always lead to fear and even if it does, fear in and of itself is also not a bad thing - neither is hate for that matter. Jedi (light side advocates) tend to think of these emotions as wild and negative but this is simply not true. Of course if used in an uncontrolled manner, these things can lead to destructive rage that results in a person feeling bad or doing stupid things regardless of consequence. But on the other hand these things should never be suppressed because they can also be controlled and channeled in highly positive and productive ways. This takes a strong knowledge of your personal character and an awareness of triggers. When these tools are utilized these emotions find constructive purposes, no different than any other emotion and can be used to good effect.

The Yoda character most symbolizes the philosophies of Taoism and Buddhism. Both traditions focus on trying to remove suffering from one's life. In Buddhism, enlightenment is ultimately the end of suffering. In Taoism, it is also suggested that attachment and emotion lead to suffering.

What Yoda is getting at with this quote is that becoming too attached to things can lead to fear of losing those things. This fear causes us to be angry at those who might take these things from us or already have. We grow to hate these people because we have to place the anger somewhere, but we don't want to blame ourselves. In the end, this leads to suffering because we carry around this hate and anger until it consumes us.

Anakin Skywalker/Darth Vader is the personification of this transition. His attachment to his mother, and then to Padme, leads him to fear losing them. When he lost his mother, his anger was unleashed as he murdered the Sand People, women and children included. He told Padme he "hates them". His attachment to Padme leads him to anger directed at Obi Wan and the Council. It is unleashed upon the Padawans at the Temple when he murders them all. He grows to hate Obi Wan because he believes his Master is trying to turn Padme against him. He screams "I hate you!" even as Obi Wan tells him he loved him as a brother. His hate ultimately leads to suffering as he is reduced to "more machine than man" and has lost everything he was attached to. His journey to the Dark Side was complete.

Luke, on the other hand, heeds Yoda's warning and does not give in to his fear as he faces Darth Vader and the Emperor. He lets go of his anger toward them both and sets his lightsaber down, saying "I will not fight you. I'll never turn to the Dark Side. You have failed, Your Highness. I am a Jedi, like my father before me." He let go of his attachment to life, choosing to forgive his father instead, and in doing so, avoids suffering the same fate as Vader.

Anger is not the true enemy here. It is an emotion that can be experienced and then let go of. It is when we hold on to it out of fear that it leads to suffering. We must learn to let go of anger, lest we become attached to it and begin to hate. Emotion, yet Peace. It is in pardoning that we are pardoned.

So if I understand this correctly, is in attachment to the things we love that we are vulnerable. When we fear its loss, we become angry at threats. As this anger festers, it becomes hatred. Out of hatred, you can do terrible things that won't help you or anyone, leading to suffering. That makes sense.
This is different from anger that comes from witnessing an unjust act, for example. You may well love the person who performed such an act, but you cannot condone their behavior, so you respond in a firm and stern manner. No one gets hurt, unless they choose to take it a an action against their reputation or pride, therefore this is not an act of the darkside.
Thank you for your insight.

NurseNickelish wrote: So if I understand this correctly, is in attachment to the things we love that we are vulnerable. When we fear its loss, we become angry at threats. As this anger festers, it becomes hatred. Out of hatred, you can do terrible things that won't help you or anyone, leading to suffering. That makes sense.
This is different from anger that comes from witnessing an unjust act, for example. You may well love the person who performed such an act, but you cannot condone their behavior, so you respond in a firm and stern manner. No one gets hurt, unless they choose to take it a an action against their reputation or pride, therefore this is not an act of the darkside.
Thank you for your insight.

Right! As Kyrin was saying, anger can be a powerful ally if it is channeled into fighting injustice or other positive and productive endeavors. The danger comes when it is uncontrolled or allowed to persist well beyond the action taken. It is when we become obsessed with hating or consumed by it that we really suffer. Yoda sends look into the cave on Degobah to confront his fear. Naturally, Luke assumes his worst fear will be Darth Vader. Instead, it is revealed that his worst fear is actually becoming Darth Vader himself. He fears succumbing to his own fear, anger, and hate the way Vader has. It is this revelation that helps Luke let go of that fear and control his anger during the final battle with Vader and the Emperor. He attacks with might and fury, cutting of Vader's hand, but then lets the anger go and drops his weapon.

Another important part of Yoda's teaching that is sometimes missed is the physical training. People tend to think Yoda makes Luke carry him around while running, swinging, and flipping through the swamp because a Jedi needs to be physically strong, which is true, but Yoda was also teaching Luke to be persistent in his training and to learn to recognize his limits. Through physical training, Luke learns to find a proper outlet for his anger, channeling the negative energy into positive motivation.

NurseNickelish wrote: So if I understand this correctly, is in attachment to the things we love that we are vulnerable.

I would disagree with this statement. If non-attachment is the way out of suffering we must also accept that it is a way out of dependency. It builds a life where we never have to depend on others. But what we need to realize is that not only is this an unhealthy point of view, it is also one that is unsustainable. We can’t handle everything ourselves all the time, nor should we want to. We should love those we are attached to without limit and allow them to love us. The very nature of this is attachment, not something to avoid but something to embrace.

Because of this it is in attachment that we actually find strength. And we need to realize that with attachment comes suffering. However suffering is also something we should not try to avoid but embrace and process in a productive manner. Trying to avoid suffering is no different than avoiding attachment or anger or hate. It is not only something we could never achieve, it is also something we should never strive for. Suffering is inherent in our reality and it’s there for a reason. It facilitates growth. This is why much of the tenets of Buddhism are wrong. Attachment creates suffering, yes, but suffering in turn creates introspection, introspection creates empathy, empathy creates love and love creates the desire to be of service to others.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

NurseNickelish wrote: So if I understand this correctly, is in attachment to the things we love that we are vulnerable.

I would disagree with this statement. If non-attachment is the way out of suffering we must also accept that it is a way out of dependency. It builds a life where we never have to depend on others. But what we need to realize is that not only is this an unhealthy point of view, it is also one that is unsustainable. We can’t handle everything ourselves all the time, nor should we want to. We should love those we are attached to without limit and allow them to love us. The very nature of this is attachment, not something to avoid but something to embrace.

Because of this it is in attachment that we actually find strength. And we need to realize that with attachment comes suffering. However it’s also something we need to not try and avoid but embrace and process in a productive manner. Trying to avoid suffering is no different than avoiding attachment or anger or hate. It is not only something we could never achieve, it is also something we should never strive for. Suffering is inherent in our reality and it’s there for a reason. It facilitates growth. This is why much of the tenets of Buddhism are wrong. Attachment creates suffering, yes, but suffering in turn creates introspection, introspection creates empathy, empathy creates love and love creates the desire to be of service to others.

You make good points here, Kyrin. I tend to think of it this way. Attachment does not have to be avoided entirely. As you say, it is actually crucial to loving and healthy relationships throughout our lives. It is also pleasant to have a microwave and a flat screen TV to come home to. This might cause me to fear a burglary or someone trying to hurt my wife, but those are fears I can manage and use to motivate me to safeguard my stuff. What is important, is learning to recognize when an attachment has become unhealthy and learning to let it go. When I become obsessed with my flat screen TV and it takes over my life, maybe it's time to take a break for a while. I have seen many people stay in unhealthy or codependent relationships out of love, and it ends very badly for everyone. On the other hand, I have seen people accomplish amazing things because of the support and encouragement they could only get from loved ones. It's about that BALANCE!

Buddhism's tenets, as most religious tenets do, present the ideal, not necessarily what is practical in our actual experience of life. Even the Jedi in the movies have unrealistic ideas about love and attachment. Sure, Yoda is the wise old sage who has managed to master his emotions, but he is also 900 years old and living in a mud hut all alone in a swamp. This isn't a realistic life for most people, just as being a Buddhist monk doesn't work for most Buddhists. It also seems pretty clear from the look on Luke's face at the end of Force Awakens that he hasn't managed to avoid suffering by cutting himself off from everyone he loves. He looks pretty miserable.

During my path many difrent doors and avenues unfold. Some ideas shrink while others grow. The absolut is never for me a answer only a label. For my path the myth the stories ... All of them for me I use for value. At times I am the bat man lol or the hobbit or the Voltron who defends not attacks. I chart them as the all myth . For me and I've benefited from this thought ... If it's a myth it's mine for the keeping and learning or teaching. Be aware things with time will change grow or shrink .

FYI the ability to let all these stories comics movies characters myths deeds ... Be in the same room and mind and heart is syncretism at its finest ... A Jedis bread and butter so to speak !

NurseNickelish wrote: Okay. So Yoda is known for saying "Fear leads to Anger, Anger leads to Hate, and Hate leads to Suffering." At first I accepted this as truth. I accepted the idea that fear and anger will lead people to the dark side. But now with my own life experience, I find that this doesn't seem to be universal. I have one of those pleasant anxiety and depression comorbidities that psychologists call my inner hell that my mind can bring when I ruminate, catastrophize and brood. Although I admire Superman, I tend to be more like Batman. Yet, despite all of this, I still care deeply about my fellow brothers and sisters. I volunteer regularly and am a nursing student working towards becoming a registered nurse. So what am I missing here? I have searched within myself, and sometimes I have briefly hated people who make fun of my sister for having a disability, but this quickly subsides because I value the dignity of other people and believe that despite anything anyone believe or does, they are worthy of my respect. I don't have to trust or like them, but my respect goes to all. I condemn myself for times I have acted in anger and hurt others, but I have not acted out of hate, so suffering in my life doesn't seem to stem from hatred. Is there something I am not seeing that would help me understand Yoda's philosophy. I understand he is a fictional character, but I want to understand the ideology behind his words.

Thanks for your help

I'd say decision making and perhaps even self control changes under different mental states, based on available energy and re-prioritizing different parts of the body to fight, run or hide, in an effort to maximise survival.... or perhaps more usefully understood as to avoid suffering. It all happens automatically within the subconscious, and at heightened states the subconscious can even momentarily take over decision making and force actions. So I see fear as a alert state trending to hide or run, anger as an alert state trending to hide or fight, hate as a brooding/stewing/planning state of hiding, and suffering in this context seems to be the manifestation of that hate both to oneself and others. So as Senan mentioned, sharing philosophies aligned with Taoism and Buddhism (among others), to avoid suffering it can help to break up the process leading to it into phases which therefore can subsequently be identified in real time to give back some conscious control to shape ones destiny instead of being a slave to ones feelings - as manipulators know how it works and 'play' vulnerable people to react.

Plus of course we all only have so much time, so whatever works to give us back at least caretaker control over our own experience of reality can in theory let us improve our quality of life. The process in its own seems to channel energy through a causal chain much in the way Yoda explains it, but if examined at each stage as it emerges it could give the opportunity in theory to slow or divert that energy into finding new perspectives on the situation to either better address it or realize it might not need addressing at all. From that process we can end up using out time to learn more about ourselves and others rather then just being caught in a cycle of action and reaction between parties.

But yea suffering as a tool works while its a tool, but becomes suffering again when it has no useful value. So again, as Senan points out, Yoda also demonstrates 'exercising' the boundaries of ones existence (in a safety conscious manner), including discomfort, to redefine our experience of reality as much as we can so that we are better able to operate under duress as it is then that it often really matters more to us but also to others.

I don't really have anything to offer but what a great discussion!!
A very interesting topic and some great points raised.

May the Force be with you all!!