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Mindfulness training does not foster empathy, & can even make narcissists worse
25 May 2017 23:16 #285278
by Locksley
We are all the sum of our tears. Too little and the ground is not fertile, and nothing can grow there. Too much, the best of us is washed away. -- J. Michael Straczynski, Babylon 5
Replied by Locksley on topic Mindfulness training does not foster empathy, & can even make narcissists worse
The study appears to be pretty limited, so I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from it. It's especially limiting that the sessions were five minutes long, and that after this single experiment this conclusion was reached.
We are all the sum of our tears. Too little and the ground is not fertile, and nothing can grow there. Too much, the best of us is washed away. -- J. Michael Straczynski, Babylon 5
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25 May 2017 23:29 #285280
by
Yeah , but still the Narcists still had a similar reaction which then stil makes one wonder ...
Replied by on topic Mindfulness training does not foster empathy, & can even make narcissists worse
Locksley wrote: The study appears to be pretty limited, so I wouldn't draw too many conclusions from it. It's especially limiting that the sessions were five minutes long, and that after this single experiment this conclusion was reached.
Yeah , but still the Narcists still had a similar reaction which then stil makes one wonder ...
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28 May 2017 11:03 - 28 May 2017 11:06 #285481
by Yugen
I would like to question in what way the mindfulness exercises were created to foster empathy though, as I don't see how an exercise where you are to be mindful of bodily sensations can help you foster empathy towards another human
TOTJO Novice
Yugen (幽玄): is said to mean “a profound, mysterious sense of the beauty of the universe… and the sad beauty of human suffering”
IP Journal
Replied by Yugen on topic Mindfulness training does not foster empathy, & can even make narcissists worse
shockThere was no overall effect of condition on mind reading accuracy
I would like to question in what way the mindfulness exercises were created to foster empathy though, as I don't see how an exercise where you are to be mindful of bodily sensations can help you foster empathy towards another human
TOTJO Novice
Yugen (幽玄): is said to mean “a profound, mysterious sense of the beauty of the universe… and the sad beauty of human suffering”
IP Journal
Last edit: 28 May 2017 11:06 by Yugen.
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28 May 2017 21:42 #285519
by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic Mindfulness training does not foster empathy, & can even make narcissists worse
All IMO... it's a type of mental exercise broadly speaking, even if its pratyahara or dreaming! So, short of being in a coma, the loci of mental activity is just changing and the experience of self transforming with different applications of mindfulness. Remembering how in lots of martial arts they used to stress the almost pacifist ideals as a precursor to the acquisition of combative skillets, and also perhaps like learning to drive a car the first lesson should be how to stop properly.
What of its nature then? Seems likely how it effects someone is going to reflect how they usually experience it. Things like Mahayana Buddhism that incorporate a focus of practise around exercising compassion specifically do so for good reason I'd imagine, to contextualize and frame progress in what they consider the most beneficial way, most usually as a progressive process of dedication to practise and thought. So I think the best way to view 'mindfulness' is they generate some productive output which benefits from responsible stewardship, ie a spiritual path.
So yea in my opinion I agree, that just accessing mental 'power' and then letting it run willy nilly in the unrefined mental space of modern world ego feeding would inevitably lead to things like narcissism in people who have no curiosity to how other people might be feeling. In comparison they indicate that people with autistic attributes might already have a focus on trying to understand others because of their preexisting perceived or actual deficiency in that area. Curiosity has that related power I think, because we are actively considering and creating new frames of reference and paradigms as part of 'discovery'.
TSDR;
In that context then I'd say that someone who only exercises mindfulness to quieten the mind to control anger could perhaps just be accessing a level of mental power solely for arresting or redirecting that 'existing' emotion into more productive avenues - that process is a reaction and antidote which means its refined output might be limited to that even to the point that excess energy leads one to seeks out that context to restore a sense of balance or 'being'.... ie the frame of reference in dealing with excess mental 'power' is too limited. They are not really forming a functional relationships with it, but rather just developing the a reactionary coping strategy - which in ways could be empowering the root problem. In the same way an absence of functional paradigm when accessing a source of mental power could be a bit like drilling a hole in a dam wall to get a drink.... if you've got a big enough drill bit then yea you'll get wet but it won't just be your mouth!!
So someone else who might use a range of meditative applications to broaden the accessibility of that mental power would in theory be accessing more of it and without an immediate channel to be directing it, and so its not hard to imagine that undefined access to 'flow' of some form of energy would not only benefit but really need to be managed into some coherent practise to continue. It's certainly one avenue to consider the fictional schism into light and dark, that this extraneous form of insight or energy from spiritual practise itself benefits from a spiritual path, and as such its nature is shaped by specifically crafted ontologies. Which really makes the study of mindfulness traditions around the world very interesting to research and experiment with. That is my initial reactino to it... thanks for the interesting study Edan!
NB: I'm using concepts like mental power and flow in really broad sense to mean any base level usable output from mindfulness training. #lazy
What of its nature then? Seems likely how it effects someone is going to reflect how they usually experience it. Things like Mahayana Buddhism that incorporate a focus of practise around exercising compassion specifically do so for good reason I'd imagine, to contextualize and frame progress in what they consider the most beneficial way, most usually as a progressive process of dedication to practise and thought. So I think the best way to view 'mindfulness' is they generate some productive output which benefits from responsible stewardship, ie a spiritual path.
So yea in my opinion I agree, that just accessing mental 'power' and then letting it run willy nilly in the unrefined mental space of modern world ego feeding would inevitably lead to things like narcissism in people who have no curiosity to how other people might be feeling. In comparison they indicate that people with autistic attributes might already have a focus on trying to understand others because of their preexisting perceived or actual deficiency in that area. Curiosity has that related power I think, because we are actively considering and creating new frames of reference and paradigms as part of 'discovery'.
TSDR;
In that context then I'd say that someone who only exercises mindfulness to quieten the mind to control anger could perhaps just be accessing a level of mental power solely for arresting or redirecting that 'existing' emotion into more productive avenues - that process is a reaction and antidote which means its refined output might be limited to that even to the point that excess energy leads one to seeks out that context to restore a sense of balance or 'being'.... ie the frame of reference in dealing with excess mental 'power' is too limited. They are not really forming a functional relationships with it, but rather just developing the a reactionary coping strategy - which in ways could be empowering the root problem. In the same way an absence of functional paradigm when accessing a source of mental power could be a bit like drilling a hole in a dam wall to get a drink.... if you've got a big enough drill bit then yea you'll get wet but it won't just be your mouth!!
So someone else who might use a range of meditative applications to broaden the accessibility of that mental power would in theory be accessing more of it and without an immediate channel to be directing it, and so its not hard to imagine that undefined access to 'flow' of some form of energy would not only benefit but really need to be managed into some coherent practise to continue. It's certainly one avenue to consider the fictional schism into light and dark, that this extraneous form of insight or energy from spiritual practise itself benefits from a spiritual path, and as such its nature is shaped by specifically crafted ontologies. Which really makes the study of mindfulness traditions around the world very interesting to research and experiment with. That is my initial reactino to it... thanks for the interesting study Edan!
NB: I'm using concepts like mental power and flow in really broad sense to mean any base level usable output from mindfulness training. #lazy
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