i thought i read that wrong but nope

04 Apr 2017 21:52 #279971 by Carlos.Martinez3
Carlos.Martinez3 created the topic: i thought i read that wrong but nope
www.msn.com/en-us/news/world/russian-sup...4X?OCID=ansmsnnews11

interesting how things come to light and how things are explained. your thoughts Temple?
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04 Apr 2017 22:14 #279972 by JamesSand
JamesSand replied the topic: i thought i read that wrong but nope
If Russian JWs are anything like the local ones, my only thoughts are "I'm surprised it took this long"

Their constant recruiting efforts, and the content of some of their pamphlets is far more alarming than anything I've ever heard from pretty much any other group I've been in contact with.

I'm not saying I agree with banning them, just that if the world is going the route of controlling groups that are...not aligned with the preferred image -, the JWs probably should have seen it coming
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04 Apr 2017 22:42 #279973 by Gisteron
Gisteron replied the topic: i thought i read that wrong but nope
I'm also not entirely opposed to this, and frankly an article on the matter that features no statement from any Russian official on the matter and has more interpretative opinions than references doesn't exactly inspire trust. If this is even true at all, then the reasons for it can't be that JW are a threat to the political or religious establishment. We are talking about a country that for the most part is either ideologically opposed to religions or highly religious with little middle ground to speak of. An organization as small as about a thousandth of the population with negligible growth is by no means a threat and neither the ROC nor parliament would view it as one if the political cunning they have shown in the past be any indication.
And speaking of past action, it seems that the governing regime, for better or worse, recognizes a profound duty of care for its people, even small fractions of the population. It would not surprise me if botht he stated and the true reasons for their crackdown on JW in particular is because it is a sect that is not only obnoxious in how much it tries to spread but, more importantly, rather abusive to its victims and especially its apostates. I'm not sure how much the Russian division of the JW in particular is also opposing public education but it would again not surprise me if we are dealing with an organization that routinely oversteps the law of the land and that a legal argument alone might be enough to sway the supreme court with no need for hyperbole.
It is perhaps not fair to compare them to scientology but I do have little doubt that their case will be used as a precedent and the argument be essentially the same. The reason we don't - and I predict won't - see this with, say, the Jewish or Muslim community in Russia, is because while they do have their own gatherings and feasts and places of worship, they are far more integrated into and less segregated from the rest of society and as such they can only afford so much before getting unwanted attention. Chances are the JW have been invisible enough to be getting away with what should normally have caused them grave trouble long ago and now its coming back to haunt them.
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05 Apr 2017 07:22 #279992 by elizabeth
elizabeth replied the topic: i thought i read that wrong but nope
The JW's are a peaceful religion.
I don't see how they are a threat and no offence but they work hard to spread God's word and they don't oppose education.
I personally see this as a terrible step, and if they ban one religious organisation, whats to stop them banning others that aren't mainstream as such.
You know like Jediism?
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05 Apr 2017 08:27 #279996 by JamesSand
JamesSand replied the topic: i thought i read that wrong but nope

I personally see this as a terrible step, and if they ban one religious organisation, whats to stop them banning others that aren't mainstream as such.
You know like Jediism?


Well, so far Jediism has managed to be pretty low key, not draw attention to itself, not trespass on people's private property, and not promise fire breathing dogs for anyone who doesn't join.


Of course, when we DO become extremists, I doubt we'll realise it.

:silly:



As far as I know, JWs are fairly harmless - but I suppose there's a difficult line in writing policy that determines between "Banning things and persecuting religious movements" and "Telling people to pull their heads in a little and worship quietly"
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05 Apr 2017 09:25 #279997 by Vraell
Vraell replied the topic: i thought i read that wrong but nope
Russia is a closed country, they have their own cars, their own brands and their own culture, baning religions shows that Russia is not a democracy, thats sad i thought they knew what the URSS done to their country....

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05 Apr 2017 09:25 #279998 by Gisteron
Gisteron replied the topic: i thought i read that wrong but nope
Die Gedanken sind frei. It is not possible to ban how people feel or what people think, not effectively anyway. We still have no actual information whether any part of this article is accurate, most importantly it references no part of legislature nor a quote from an official to inform us of what is actually going on, if anything at all. If what I know of Russian bureaucracy is at all accurate, the judgement will be on what these people are allowed to do, not on what they are allowed to think. I don't know what the JW are doing over there, I just suggest that the null hypothesis here be that this move, if it is even happening, is not an arbitrary one, not coming out of nowhere and for no reason.

And yes, I don't have a problem with organizations that are famous for mistreating their adherents to be disbanded for that reason. If you are in charge of maintaining well being of your citizens, to neglect that duty out of a commitment to grant them the freedom to mistreat each other would be frankly tantamount to malpratice. If Jediism (as if that's an organization at all even) went out of its way to socially isolate the Jedi from the rest of the world and then strip them of the rest of their human interactions for daring to doubt the good of that, to even say nothing of how obnoxious the JW sometimes are in their recruiting efforts, then yes, I would have no problem with it being sanctioned, too.

We all agree that the JW aren't a threat to the powers that be over there, and those powers aren't exactly stupid, so they know it, too. It thus is likely not about power. If it was, they could get rid of the Witnesses with sheer force alone and nobody could do much of anything about that. Instead they are going through the supreme court, and thus I suspect this is a matter of law, not a matter of power.

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05 Apr 2017 09:41 #280001 by Gisteron
Gisteron replied the topic: i thought i read that wrong but nope

Vraell wrote: Russia is a closed country, they have their own cars, their own brands and their own culture

Well yes, especially with cars and trucks some of the machines from Soviet times are still around. But I'm not positive they are producing much on that end anymore. On the streets you mostly see your typical German and Japanese and American cars. As for brands and culture, all nations have their own. That's no indication of closedness.

baning religions shows that Russia is not a democracy

No. The lack of meaningful elections does that. That a political leader acts in the interest of its people shows nothing of the sort.

thats sad i thought they knew what the URSS [sic] done to their country....

They do.

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05 Apr 2017 13:33 #280011 by JLSpinner
JLSpinner replied the topic: i thought i read that wrong but nope
When religion is used for political agendas, everyone loses.
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05 Apr 2017 14:00 #280014 by OB1Shinobi
OB1Shinobi replied the topic: i thought i read that wrong but nope
this story is covered by other outlets

the picture that ive gotten on russia in the last few months is that they have some of their intelligence apparatus focused quite steadily at american cyber structure and social media

reports of their influence on our elections, their connection to wikilinks, and the yahoo hack are some easy to research examples

the JW are commited to pacifism on non-participation with government, so AT BEST they represent an organized and commited group of people who are neutral to russian political interests

but the JW headquarters in in america and its in america where the bulk of their literature is prepared

so the russian pov, lnowing the level of their own commitment to being able to influence america through whatever networks they can develop, sees the JW as potential security threat

also the picture that im seeing painted is that the russian govt kind if prefers religions that have a bent towards nationalism, which obviously the JWs dont

those are some of the explainations i found when i used the google button, but ive never been to russia, i dont spend a lot of time studynng russia, and dont claim to understand russia, take it for what its worth

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