Compassion vs Honesty

I just thought of an example from my own life that I think could be relevant.

When I was younger (late teens) my sister and I were playing Wii Sports and I was winning. She's nine years younger than me so she was maybe ten at the time. She got mad and kicked me in an area that was only meant to be treated nicely.

I had two options calmly tell her not to do that or kick her little butt so she knew not to do it. Guess which one I did. She got kicked and flipped on her head and held there until she promised never to do it again. My mom and step dad nearly disowned me (fearing that I, the martial artist, might hurt their fragile daughter) but guess what, she never kicked me again. Any guy with a sibling (especially a sister) can tell you that simply asking them not to kick you there isn't going to work.

Now I wasn't mean to her. I had, at the time 15 years of martial arts training to help me know just how hard was too hard. It was enough to let her know she was out of her league but not enough to actually even hurt her. I wasn't really kind and compassionate though as it wouldn't have helped either of us.

Goken wrote: I just thought of an example from my own life that I think could be relevant.

When I was younger (late teens) my sister and I were playing Wii Sports and I was winning. She's nine years younger than me so she was maybe ten at the time. She got mad and kicked me in an area that was only meant to be treated nicely.

I had two options calmly tell her not to do that or kick her little butt so she knew not to do it. Guess which one I did. She got kicked and flipped on her head and held there until she promised never to do it again. My mom and step dad nearly disowned me (fearing that I, the martial artist, might hurt their fragile daughter) but guess what, she never kicked me again. Any guy with a sibling (especially a sister) can tell you that simply asking them not to kick you there isn't going to work.

Now I wasn't mean to her. I had, at the time 15 years of martial arts training to help me know just how hard was too hard. It was enough to let her know she was out of her league but not enough to actually even hurt her. I wasn't really kind and compassionate though as it wouldn't have helped either of us.

The proper sequence would be to calmy tell her not to or you would do such an act, and when she chose to do so anyway(because they love calling your bluff), you do it anyway.

I actually did the same thing with my sister, she was trying to be forceful with me and break into my room one day and I told her 3 times if she didn't stop I was gonna slap her and I did, and she never tried again. Ah the teen years.

She was ten, do you honestly think she'd never done that before? :laugh:

The idea that compassion and honesty are mutually exclusive stems, I believe, from the idea that they are ends.

They are not. They are tools.

If they are viewed as tools, the question is not if one is better than the other, but which one is better for this particular purpose?

So, for example, if I am talking to my daughter, who is still a child, about a very delicate issue, I might be inclined to be more careful about how I approach her and how I word what I am saying (body language and tone included), in order to make her feel safe. There is nothing inherently dishonest about that, but if a lie is necessary, then well, let's use it.

If, on the other hand, I am here at TOTJO, where it is pretty much assumed people come to challenge themselves and learn, I will focus more on being poignant in getting the message across, and that might involve being brutally forward, or not, depending on the specific topic/person/mood/etc.

TL,DR; Both are tools, use what works

This was written back in July :

Occasioned by recent events, there are some quite strong emotions being expressed with regard to the ideological clash that underpins them. We tend to fall into the Manichean ditch then, judging some as good, others as evil ; one is then disposed to entertaining and harbouring ideas as to what the “evil-doers” deserve.

In a number of the general discussions going on (the « war vs. crime », the one about the attack in Nice, the one about Turkey and so forth), there has been pretty clear evidence that everyone is exploring their notions about how to do Justice. Somewhat understandably, our ideas of Justice are coming off on the punitive angle. What remains a little vague is how much genuinely felt Compassion is being displayed – not only for the victims of violence and the suffering of the most unfortunate affected by what has been emerging on our socio-politico-economic landscape – but for everyone, “evil-doers” included. Can it be that anyone does not deserve compassion ?

In correspondence to the three tenets of focus, knowledge and wisdom, let’s meander around the notion of compassion in hopes of gaining some further understanding of what the compassionate person feels, for whom and possibly some of the thinking (some of which cannot be formulated with any verbal analytical or textual precision) when compassion is felt.

What do we mean when we say that we are feeling “compassion” ? For as pretty as it may sound, Compassion is not a positive emotion. It is a painful feeling brought on by the pain of another creature, human or otherwise. There are three essential thoughts (albeit, I’m using the term ‘thought’ here rather expansively – it may not be a cognitive ‘thought’) that give rise to the feeling of Compassion :



First, we find that to feel compassion for someone, we must consider their suffering to be over a serious, non-trivial matter. We do not feel compassion for someone who is complaining over something that we feel to be just, as when a rich person is required to pay a fair amount of taxes. For genuine compassion to be aroused, we must understand the problem faced by the suffering person is indeed causing them a grave dilemma, not a merely unpleasant circumstance of life.



Secondly, compassion requires us to see the suffering of the one for whom it is felt to not have been caused by him/herself. There must be the judgement of non-fault on the suffering person. As such, we would not feel compassion for someone complaining of a lack of trust that others would place in them were we to know that this person rarely tells the truth/honours commitments. The suffering may be circumstantial, but not directly caused by the person to whom it comes. This is related to the compassion that one can have for the heroes in Greek tragedy, who falls into the state of anaitios – not responsible for her/his own downfall.



Lastly, there must be a recognition that our possibilities in Life are similar : we have similar vulnerabilities. It is sign of recognition of our shared humanity – even our shared “animality” – of being incarnated living beings experiencing joys and pains in Life. We are all subject to the pain of unmet needs, unfulfilled desires, and existential angst. We are all prone to bodily and emotional pain – as are other non-human animals. There is a very urgent potential for danger when we deny our own animal nature : objectification of other human beings and animals as resources for our exploitation : means for satisfying ends.



Another support for, though not a foundational element of, compassion is eudaimonistic thinking. This is where the thoughts – of feelings (whether those feelings are textually formulated or not) – about the suffering person are amplified by the thought that the person(s) affected are important to one’s own sense of well-being. This is most clearly evident when the person suffering is very close, but can also be aroused when it involves persons in a distant land – victims of natural catastrophe or warfare, perhaps – or the members of other animal species ; the thought is that the others’ welfare is important to one’s own. This is not egotism in its proper sense, but the outgrowth of our natural inclination to empathy.



Empathy, this is not an essential element of compassion either, although compassion can or does indeed grow out of it. Empathy, in itself is not sufficient to produce compassion. It is the development of the ability to imagine the suffering of another/others from that point of view – not one’s own (empathy is not “imagining what this would be like if it were me” – that would still be one’s own perspective). The imaginative leap is thus perspectival : we maintain the “self/other” distinction in order to confront the situation from the others’ unique point-of-view.



Thus, as it were, with the conjunction of these fundamentals, we cultivate the ability to see others, be they intimate or unknown to us, as distinct and inimitable centres of experience. It is this recognition, this expansive understanding (though without “having understood”) which fosters the feeling of our shared humanity (even with non-human beings) and grounds us in the unitive, though inexpressible, continuum of existence reassured though genuine compassion.



May the Force be with you all …





(Acknowledgements to Dr Martha Nussbaum)

I'll let you all figure what sort of honesty has to be in the mix. It shouldn't take too long to figure it out ...

I am in the boat of honesty, but one need not be rude to express even the hardest truths. Phrasing can make or break the perceived meaning of what is said, and you need to play your audience to determine the correct phrasing. For example, if my wife asks how something makes her look, she fully expects me to be brutal and specific to any downsides. However, if my mom were to ask about a horrible piece of clothing, I may respond with something more restrained. "It's not flattering".

I personally do not condone white lies, and have occasionally undermined them. Some see this as cruel, but I see it as providing truth from which one can structure progress, and I would rather be provided the truth I do not like than go on doing poorly. To tell someone they are sub-optimal is no fun, but it allows them to address the issue and become better as a result, and I for one see much value in providing that opportunity.

I use; Fair, Loving, Open, Transparent and Honest... FLOTH,,, like Hoth

So to compare that to Alex's quote, perhaps they can work like;
Non-trivial -> Fair
Victim -> Loving
Shared -> Openness
Eudaimonistic Thinking -> Transparency
Empathy -> Honesty

To try and consider values.... as nobody really wants to be a one armed Wampa :side: wut!? :pinch:

Something I"m going to think on anyway!

Being honest with a person towards whom you're feeling compassion is being honest with yourself. If you are of the opinion that you yourself can't deal very well with a particular truth, you might want to keep it from the other person.

One thing that I find interesting here is that most of the responses have been on the compassionate side of things. Lot's of talk of "it's situational" and "sometimes" and such things, but I seem to not see anyone who I would have put on the "opposing" side of this argument. No one who has responded so far is on the list of people I would have figured for the "tough love" side.

I'd love to hear from someone who thinks that we're being "weak" or "too soft." We learn nothing by only listening to people that we agree with. Maybe you don't even disagree with what we're saying, but with how you view us having applied it. Maybe someone thinks that for all the previous posters' talk of "getting rough when it's needed" that we never actually do.

Goken wrote: I'd love to hear from someone who thinks that we're being "weak" or "too soft." We learn nothing by only listening to people that we agree with. Maybe you don't even disagree with what we're saying, but with how you view us having applied it. Maybe someone thinks that for all the previous posters' talk of "getting rough when it's needed" that we never actually do.

Is Snowy still still around? She took special pleasure in telling people just that.