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Professor J Peterson Against Political Correctness
28 Oct 2016 05:44 - 28 Oct 2016 06:02 #262939
by Adder
Replied by Adder on topic Professor J Peterson Against Political Correctness
The change in the Act seems to require "evidence that the offence was motivated by bias, prejudice or hate based on" which to me seems to say its not the inadvertent misuse you have to worry about, but rather the intentional misuse enough to generate evidence of those motivations.
But despite that, I mean, its never been wrong to say they're, their, or your etc - as its just non-specific in regards to sex or gender. It's only been wrong to say the wrong sex or gender specific pronoun.... not to use the generic one. I'd be surprised if all of a sudden it was wrong to use the generic and suddenly it was required to avoid the generic one as well!!
Having too many students and trying to teach complicated subjects together would seem to be a good actual reason to repeatedly get some individual students preference wrong. If everyone can basically come up with their own pronoun then I guess it comes down to being worse then remembering someones name, which I'm hopeless at. At least names are sorta limited to common types most of the time. The rise of 'they' and 'their' I guess? Funnily enough is the freedom of gender going to spell the beginning of the end of gender itself!!
Otherwise, the can of worms of a topic... knowing gender and sex to be different things, its clear that gender seems to be shifting away from sex as where once mainstream dynamics had them overlaying pretty much completely, it seemed simple to most people - but gender fluidity means there can be not only different examples, but that it can change!!
So if gender disconnects entirely from sex, then yea I guess I'd have to consider that might not eventually need gender as a concept, anymore!!! Replace with 'human', they and their. I'd guess the only reason it existed was because it is integral in many relationship dynamics, such that many like to pair combinations of behavioral sets that seem compatible in some way. Such that in the mainstream model, places of privacy were for refuge from the other team, to allow that social interplay to exist at a higher level of interaction. If the concept of teams no longer exist, then the concept of refuge needs to change.. as its just becomes individuals. Gender fluidity seem to reference those mainstream models in some way mostly anyway seemingly, but by becoming individualized would seem to do away with it as a concept and replaced with just different types of expression.
But there is still the attribute of sex which can serve where required to impart refuge for those who want it, there is undeniable evidence in regards to reproductive dynamics in regards to possessiveness of mates. So I'd probably need to take a biological approach, have a look at nature etc, and IMO looking at human behaviour and history, the partnering pressures on reproduction tend to create a requirement for the choice of the male sex to be kept apart from the female sex. Of course this cannot be enforced, but as a rule it provides a legal landscape to promote lawful conduct which tends to have the desired effect most of the time. So with all that considered, and I cannot help but this segways into the highly emotional bathroom debate. If we were to end up using a standard non-gender pronoun then it makes me think the 3 bathroom types approach might be best, the mixed, male, and female. Just my personal opinion of course, and I know its an vexed topic with good points all round.
But despite that, I mean, its never been wrong to say they're, their, or your etc - as its just non-specific in regards to sex or gender. It's only been wrong to say the wrong sex or gender specific pronoun.... not to use the generic one. I'd be surprised if all of a sudden it was wrong to use the generic and suddenly it was required to avoid the generic one as well!!
Having too many students and trying to teach complicated subjects together would seem to be a good actual reason to repeatedly get some individual students preference wrong. If everyone can basically come up with their own pronoun then I guess it comes down to being worse then remembering someones name, which I'm hopeless at. At least names are sorta limited to common types most of the time. The rise of 'they' and 'their' I guess? Funnily enough is the freedom of gender going to spell the beginning of the end of gender itself!!
Otherwise, the can of worms of a topic... knowing gender and sex to be different things, its clear that gender seems to be shifting away from sex as where once mainstream dynamics had them overlaying pretty much completely, it seemed simple to most people - but gender fluidity means there can be not only different examples, but that it can change!!
So if gender disconnects entirely from sex, then yea I guess I'd have to consider that might not eventually need gender as a concept, anymore!!! Replace with 'human', they and their. I'd guess the only reason it existed was because it is integral in many relationship dynamics, such that many like to pair combinations of behavioral sets that seem compatible in some way. Such that in the mainstream model, places of privacy were for refuge from the other team, to allow that social interplay to exist at a higher level of interaction. If the concept of teams no longer exist, then the concept of refuge needs to change.. as its just becomes individuals. Gender fluidity seem to reference those mainstream models in some way mostly anyway seemingly, but by becoming individualized would seem to do away with it as a concept and replaced with just different types of expression.
But there is still the attribute of sex which can serve where required to impart refuge for those who want it, there is undeniable evidence in regards to reproductive dynamics in regards to possessiveness of mates. So I'd probably need to take a biological approach, have a look at nature etc, and IMO looking at human behaviour and history, the partnering pressures on reproduction tend to create a requirement for the choice of the male sex to be kept apart from the female sex. Of course this cannot be enforced, but as a rule it provides a legal landscape to promote lawful conduct which tends to have the desired effect most of the time. So with all that considered, and I cannot help but this segways into the highly emotional bathroom debate. If we were to end up using a standard non-gender pronoun then it makes me think the 3 bathroom types approach might be best, the mixed, male, and female. Just my personal opinion of course, and I know its an vexed topic with good points all round.
Last edit: 28 Oct 2016 06:02 by Adder.
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29 Oct 2016 02:57 #263034
by ren
Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies.
Replied by ren on topic Professor J Peterson Against Political Correctness
Better start stockpiling the popcorn for the end of civilization. It'll be well funny when the allahuakbars show up and no-one's there to help.
Convictions are more dangerous foes of truth than lies.
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29 Oct 2016 21:05 - 29 Oct 2016 21:06 #263083
by OB1Shinobi
People are complicated.
Replied by OB1Shinobi on topic Professor J Peterson Against Political Correctness
a correspondence from Prof Peterson
October 18, 2016,
http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/civil-rights/301661-this-canadian-prof-defied-sjw-on-gender-pronouns-and-has-a
October 18, 2016,
http://thehill.com/blogs/pundits-blog/civil-rights/301661-this-canadian-prof-defied-sjw-on-gender-pronouns-and-has-a
Warning: Spoiler!
"Two weeks ago I posted three YouTube videos about legislative threats to Canadian freedom of speech. I singled out Canada’s Federal Bill C-16, which adds legal protection for “gender identity” and “gender expression” to the Canadian Human Rights Act and the Criminal code.
I noted that the policy statements surrounding similar legislation — most particularly those on the Ontario Human Rights Commission website — were dangerously vague and ill-formulated. I also indicated my refusal to apply what are now known as “preferred” pronouns to people who do not fit easily into traditional gender categories (although I am willing to call someone “he” or “she” in accordance with their manner of self-presentation).
These videos attracted a disproportionate amount of attention — online, in the Canadian national media, and beyond. A demonstration at the University of Toronto protested my statements. Another was held in support of free speech. The latter was met by counter-demonstrators who drowned out the speakers with white noise and assaulted a young female journalist — an act now viewed by half a million people on YouTube overall:
If you are wondering, reasonably, why any of this might be relevant to Americans, you might note that legislation very similar to Bill C-16 has already been passed in New York City.
Authorities there now fine citizens up to $250,000 for the novel crime of “mis-gendering” — referring to people by any words other than their pronouns of choice (including newly constructed words such as zie/hir, ey/em/eir and co).
“They” is also a popular choice, transforming the plural into a new singular, with its advocates arguing (misleadingly, in my opinion) that such use reaches back several hundred years. I have been taken to task for my refusal to abide by the wishes of those demanding such changes to my speech. What are my reasons?
First, most simply, are the practical problems. The Big Apple now legally protects a non-exhaustive list of 31 gender identities.
Facebook offers a choice of 58. Is that not the instant reductio ad absurdum of the gender extremists’ claims? Are the denizens of New York now legally required to employ a new pronoun for each of these many identities? How are they supposed to keep track of who’s who? And who is going to distinguish between mistakes and criminal action or intent?
It also turns out that pronouns are not so easy to change — particularly by fiat — because they are part of a “closed linguistic category” resistant to alteration.
Second, more complexly, are the political issues. “Gender-neutral” pronouns are, in my opinion, part of the “PC Game.” Here’s how you play:
First, you identify a domain of human endeavor. It could be the wealth of people within a society. It could be the psychological well-being of individuals within a given organization. It could be the prowess of school children at a particular sport.
Second, you note the inevitable continuum of success. Some people are richer or happier than others. Some children are better at playing volleyball.
Third, you define those doing comparatively better as oppressors of those doing comparatively worse.
Fourth, and finally, you declare solidarity with the latter, and enmity for the former (now all-too-convenient targets for your resentment and hatred).
You have now established your moral superiority, cost-free, and can trumpet it at will.
Words such as zie and hir, are, in my opinion, moves in the PC game. It’s not a game I wish to play. We shouldn’t reduce complex, uncertain issues to a one-size-fits-all formula. Instead, we should think things through carefully, using words of our own choice. It’s a free speech issue, in its essence.
People often defend freedom of speech on the grounds that citizens must retain the right to criticize their leaders. That’s true, but it’s not the fundamental truth.
Freedom of speech protects our societies from shipwreck on the Scylla of tyranny and the Charybdis of nihilism and despair. Freedom of speech allows us to identify the problems that beset us. Freedom of speech allows us to formulate solutions to those problems, and to reach consensus on the solutions.
There is nothing in the absence of freedom of speech but tyranny and slavery.
To identify problems, solve them, and reach consensus, we have to do it foolishly. We have to mis-speak, and over-react, and engage badly in intense verbal conflict. We have to be tested and corrected by others. All of that requires legal protection.
People become upset by differences of opinion, and want them suppressed. And it’s no wonder. But the alternative is worse.
Without free speech, we cannot explore our ever-transforming territories, orient ourselves, and get to the point. Without freedom of speech, we will not talk — and we will not think. And then we will have real conflict, with all of its horrors, instead of its abstracted equivalent.
Bill C-16, and its legislative sisters, are particularly insidious constructions.
Free speech is so fundamentally important that restricting it in any manner carries serious risk. Nonetheless, we shouldn’t be allowed to yell “fire” in a crowded theatre. Sensible people can also debate the control of hatred (although hate speech laws present a significant danger themselves).
There is, however, a crucial difference between laws that stop people from saying arguably dangerous words and laws that mandate the use of politically-approved words and phrases. We have never had laws of the latter sort before, not in our countries. This is no time to start.
So, a note from a Canadian friend. The citizens of your great country, and ours — and of our allies across the Western world — are at risk.
Careless, ideologically-addled legislators are forcing us to use words we did not freely choose. We have to draw a line in the sand. That’s why people are watching. It’s a vitally important issue. We cannot afford to get it wrong."
I noted that the policy statements surrounding similar legislation — most particularly those on the Ontario Human Rights Commission website — were dangerously vague and ill-formulated. I also indicated my refusal to apply what are now known as “preferred” pronouns to people who do not fit easily into traditional gender categories (although I am willing to call someone “he” or “she” in accordance with their manner of self-presentation).
These videos attracted a disproportionate amount of attention — online, in the Canadian national media, and beyond. A demonstration at the University of Toronto protested my statements. Another was held in support of free speech. The latter was met by counter-demonstrators who drowned out the speakers with white noise and assaulted a young female journalist — an act now viewed by half a million people on YouTube overall:
If you are wondering, reasonably, why any of this might be relevant to Americans, you might note that legislation very similar to Bill C-16 has already been passed in New York City.
Authorities there now fine citizens up to $250,000 for the novel crime of “mis-gendering” — referring to people by any words other than their pronouns of choice (including newly constructed words such as zie/hir, ey/em/eir and co).
“They” is also a popular choice, transforming the plural into a new singular, with its advocates arguing (misleadingly, in my opinion) that such use reaches back several hundred years. I have been taken to task for my refusal to abide by the wishes of those demanding such changes to my speech. What are my reasons?
First, most simply, are the practical problems. The Big Apple now legally protects a non-exhaustive list of 31 gender identities.
Facebook offers a choice of 58. Is that not the instant reductio ad absurdum of the gender extremists’ claims? Are the denizens of New York now legally required to employ a new pronoun for each of these many identities? How are they supposed to keep track of who’s who? And who is going to distinguish between mistakes and criminal action or intent?
It also turns out that pronouns are not so easy to change — particularly by fiat — because they are part of a “closed linguistic category” resistant to alteration.
Second, more complexly, are the political issues. “Gender-neutral” pronouns are, in my opinion, part of the “PC Game.” Here’s how you play:
First, you identify a domain of human endeavor. It could be the wealth of people within a society. It could be the psychological well-being of individuals within a given organization. It could be the prowess of school children at a particular sport.
Second, you note the inevitable continuum of success. Some people are richer or happier than others. Some children are better at playing volleyball.
Third, you define those doing comparatively better as oppressors of those doing comparatively worse.
Fourth, and finally, you declare solidarity with the latter, and enmity for the former (now all-too-convenient targets for your resentment and hatred).
You have now established your moral superiority, cost-free, and can trumpet it at will.
Words such as zie and hir, are, in my opinion, moves in the PC game. It’s not a game I wish to play. We shouldn’t reduce complex, uncertain issues to a one-size-fits-all formula. Instead, we should think things through carefully, using words of our own choice. It’s a free speech issue, in its essence.
People often defend freedom of speech on the grounds that citizens must retain the right to criticize their leaders. That’s true, but it’s not the fundamental truth.
Freedom of speech protects our societies from shipwreck on the Scylla of tyranny and the Charybdis of nihilism and despair. Freedom of speech allows us to identify the problems that beset us. Freedom of speech allows us to formulate solutions to those problems, and to reach consensus on the solutions.
There is nothing in the absence of freedom of speech but tyranny and slavery.
To identify problems, solve them, and reach consensus, we have to do it foolishly. We have to mis-speak, and over-react, and engage badly in intense verbal conflict. We have to be tested and corrected by others. All of that requires legal protection.
People become upset by differences of opinion, and want them suppressed. And it’s no wonder. But the alternative is worse.
Without free speech, we cannot explore our ever-transforming territories, orient ourselves, and get to the point. Without freedom of speech, we will not talk — and we will not think. And then we will have real conflict, with all of its horrors, instead of its abstracted equivalent.
Bill C-16, and its legislative sisters, are particularly insidious constructions.
Free speech is so fundamentally important that restricting it in any manner carries serious risk. Nonetheless, we shouldn’t be allowed to yell “fire” in a crowded theatre. Sensible people can also debate the control of hatred (although hate speech laws present a significant danger themselves).
There is, however, a crucial difference between laws that stop people from saying arguably dangerous words and laws that mandate the use of politically-approved words and phrases. We have never had laws of the latter sort before, not in our countries. This is no time to start.
So, a note from a Canadian friend. The citizens of your great country, and ours — and of our allies across the Western world — are at risk.
Careless, ideologically-addled legislators are forcing us to use words we did not freely choose. We have to draw a line in the sand. That’s why people are watching. It’s a vitally important issue. We cannot afford to get it wrong."
People are complicated.
Last edit: 29 Oct 2016 21:06 by OB1Shinobi.
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18 Nov 2016 19:38 #265056
by OB1Shinobi
People are complicated.
Replied by OB1Shinobi on topic Professor J Peterson Against Political Correctness
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BR8tVB7sNxc&t=5s
People are complicated.
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18 Nov 2016 19:39 #265057
by OB1Shinobi
People are complicated.
Replied by OB1Shinobi on topic Professor J Peterson Against Political Correctness
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uHv5K1YLGqE
People are complicated.
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22 Nov 2016 19:20 - 22 Nov 2016 19:26 #265461
by OB1Shinobi
People are complicated.
Replied by OB1Shinobi on topic Professor J Peterson Against Political Correctness
the debate
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68NHUV5me7Q
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68NHUV5me7Q
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Last edit: 22 Nov 2016 19:26 by OB1Shinobi.
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03 Dec 2016 17:39 - 03 Dec 2016 17:52 #267098
by OB1Shinobi
People are complicated.
Replied by OB1Shinobi on topic Professor J Peterson Against Political Correctness
an amazing interview, many in the comments are saying this is the best JRE ever
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04wyGK6k6HE
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=04wyGK6k6HE
People are complicated.
Last edit: 03 Dec 2016 17:52 by OB1Shinobi.
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03 Dec 2016 18:11 - 03 Dec 2016 18:13 #267100
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Replied by on topic Professor J Peterson Against Political Correctness
I can see your point of view here and it is 100% correct. I just feel that there should be new set pronouns so people do not go around making up random words as OB1Shinobi has stated. I'm not saying this out of hate but from a real world scientifically standpoint as having people make up where own pronouns would mess up science and organization of public records. I do agree with you Goken on not calling them their preferred pronoun should be a hate crime as long as it is the correct pronoun. To sum this up the law should go forth but be revised so that one can pick out of new set pronouns for organizational purposes.
Last edit: 03 Dec 2016 18:13 by . Reason: spelling problem
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03 Dec 2016 18:29 - 03 Dec 2016 18:31 #267101
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Replied by on topic Professor J Peterson Against Political Correctness
I think ppl have the right to call others whatever they want, but i also think ppl have the right to or not to associate with whoever they want.
what happened to being satisfied with your friends using a nickname for you?.
this kind of thing in my mind shows that western culture has gotten to point where it can no longer absorb its subcultures.
and that is not good for the society as a whole, unless either side can give and take.
what happened to being satisfied with your friends using a nickname for you?.
this kind of thing in my mind shows that western culture has gotten to point where it can no longer absorb its subcultures.
and that is not good for the society as a whole, unless either side can give and take.
Last edit: 03 Dec 2016 18:31 by .
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03 Dec 2016 19:15 - 03 Dec 2016 20:43 #267103
by OB1Shinobi
People are complicated.
Replied by OB1Shinobi on topic Professor J Peterson Against Political Correctness
why should it be considered a hate-crime to say a mean thing?
i think that using the law to impose social nicety and punish infractions thereof is a guaranteed road to authoritarian tyranny
heres a guy who doesnt want to be an adult anymore, so he has decided that he identifies as a six year old little girl
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgePxidFt7k
sabbaticals are great thing for everyone from time to time, but this guy has created a shelter of fantasy to escape from reality, and left his real family (wife and children) behind in doing it
what i see is a man in a wig, what do you see?
am i using hate speech?
i dont hate the man, i dont want anything bad to happen to him, i would even stand up for him if someone attacked him
but i dont see a woman when i look at him, i certainly dont see a six yr old little girl
i see a man is a wig whose exact words were "i dont want to be am adult anymore"
should i be jailed or fined or have my assets seized because i have an opinion that people dont like and i speak it honestly?
is it more important that no one say anything which might hurt this mans feelings or is it more important that society be able to speak to each other honestly about what we think and what we see?
i do recognize (trans) blaire white as a woman, partly because she actually LOOKS like a woman, and partly because shes not a complete idiot
but as a result of the law thats been passed in canada and in new york, and similar legislation which is sure to follow, it is conceivable that she (an actual trans woman) could some day be fined or even jailed for hate speech against trans people
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9WqfBDjRF8
if youd like to hear more from blaire white on this topic, id like to recommend her video " There Are Only 2 Genders, Get The F**k Over It "
i think that using the law to impose social nicety and punish infractions thereof is a guaranteed road to authoritarian tyranny
heres a guy who doesnt want to be an adult anymore, so he has decided that he identifies as a six year old little girl
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wgePxidFt7k
sabbaticals are great thing for everyone from time to time, but this guy has created a shelter of fantasy to escape from reality, and left his real family (wife and children) behind in doing it
what i see is a man in a wig, what do you see?
am i using hate speech?
i dont hate the man, i dont want anything bad to happen to him, i would even stand up for him if someone attacked him
but i dont see a woman when i look at him, i certainly dont see a six yr old little girl
i see a man is a wig whose exact words were "i dont want to be am adult anymore"
should i be jailed or fined or have my assets seized because i have an opinion that people dont like and i speak it honestly?
is it more important that no one say anything which might hurt this mans feelings or is it more important that society be able to speak to each other honestly about what we think and what we see?
i do recognize (trans) blaire white as a woman, partly because she actually LOOKS like a woman, and partly because shes not a complete idiot
but as a result of the law thats been passed in canada and in new york, and similar legislation which is sure to follow, it is conceivable that she (an actual trans woman) could some day be fined or even jailed for hate speech against trans people
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s9WqfBDjRF8
if youd like to hear more from blaire white on this topic, id like to recommend her video " There Are Only 2 Genders, Get The F**k Over It "
People are complicated.
Last edit: 03 Dec 2016 20:43 by OB1Shinobi.
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