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Professor J Peterson Against Political Correctness
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26 Oct 2016 20:14 - 26 Oct 2016 20:21 #262761
by OB1Shinobi
People are complicated.
Professor J Peterson Against Political Correctness was created by OB1Shinobi
far, far away, in a magical place called "CANADA", theres a bill called c16 which is meant to alter the Canadian Bill of Human Rights in such a way that if you do not address a person by the pronoun which they desire, then you are guilty of a hate crime
now this bill isnt saying that you have to use "him" or "her" in accordance with the way a person present his or herself, it is saying that a person can claim to be a zog or a libbellobbel, or some other made up and nonsensical word, and if you do not address them as such then you are guilty of hate-speech
a similar bill has been passed in New York, to those who are interested
a Toronto professor named Jordan Peterson learned of this bill right around the same time that his university decided that the faculty must all receive anti-discrimination and "unconscious bias" training
this professor does not believe that his university is especially discriminatory; he seems to believe that U of T is one of the most inclusive and well integrated campuses in the world
he also doesnt believe that "unconscious bias" is something that anyone is qualified to identify and "train"
he released 3 videos in response to this, each of them pretty long, and in the first one he says “I don’t recognize another person’s right to determine what pronouns I use to address them. I won’t do it.”
he has several points in the video and he doesnt elaborate much on the pronoun issue but since the first vid he has explained that we will use traditional pronouns based on how the individual presents his or herself
his objection is to the made up words
here is the first vid, its worth watching but its like an hour long
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvPgjg201w0
this stirred up a hornets nest!
the campus has had a free speech rally which was quite interesting
here is Prof Peterson having a pretty decent discussion with a young black woman, apparently associated with Black Lives Matter
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gakoqQz6aUc
now this bill isnt saying that you have to use "him" or "her" in accordance with the way a person present his or herself, it is saying that a person can claim to be a zog or a libbellobbel, or some other made up and nonsensical word, and if you do not address them as such then you are guilty of hate-speech
a similar bill has been passed in New York, to those who are interested
a Toronto professor named Jordan Peterson learned of this bill right around the same time that his university decided that the faculty must all receive anti-discrimination and "unconscious bias" training
this professor does not believe that his university is especially discriminatory; he seems to believe that U of T is one of the most inclusive and well integrated campuses in the world
he also doesnt believe that "unconscious bias" is something that anyone is qualified to identify and "train"
he released 3 videos in response to this, each of them pretty long, and in the first one he says “I don’t recognize another person’s right to determine what pronouns I use to address them. I won’t do it.”
he has several points in the video and he doesnt elaborate much on the pronoun issue but since the first vid he has explained that we will use traditional pronouns based on how the individual presents his or herself
his objection is to the made up words
here is the first vid, its worth watching but its like an hour long
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fvPgjg201w0
this stirred up a hornets nest!
the campus has had a free speech rally which was quite interesting
here is Prof Peterson having a pretty decent discussion with a young black woman, apparently associated with Black Lives Matter
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gakoqQz6aUc
People are complicated.
Last edit: 26 Oct 2016 20:21 by OB1Shinobi.
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26 Oct 2016 20:14 - 26 Oct 2016 20:41 #262762
by OB1Shinobi
People are complicated.
Replied by OB1Shinobi on topic Professor J Peterson Against Political Correctness
and of course, a bunch of SJW's showed up and acted like fools
they used "white noise" to drown out people who tried to speak, they interfered with the sound system, and some of them even assaulted people
basically, they showed themselves to be a bunch of slimy little monsters
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-IFcCY0m3E
the second one starts off a bit silly but it adds to the first
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4dc_rjD1GE
they used "white noise" to drown out people who tried to speak, they interfered with the sound system, and some of them even assaulted people
basically, they showed themselves to be a bunch of slimy little monsters
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K-IFcCY0m3E
the second one starts off a bit silly but it adds to the first
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e4dc_rjD1GE
People are complicated.
Last edit: 26 Oct 2016 20:41 by OB1Shinobi.
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26 Oct 2016 20:18 #262763
by OB1Shinobi
People are complicated.
Replied by OB1Shinobi on topic Professor J Peterson Against Political Correctness
then the U of T asked Professor P to basically stfu
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S31Jf2WFTNU
here is his response, in which he suggests that the campus hold a series of public debates to discuss number of issues including but not limited to gender and pronoun usage
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmNKPL1Y4g0
and apparently the U of T thought this might be a decent idea, and they agreed!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19nihGC2NVc
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S31Jf2WFTNU
here is his response, in which he suggests that the campus hold a series of public debates to discuss number of issues including but not limited to gender and pronoun usage
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WmNKPL1Y4g0
and apparently the U of T thought this might be a decent idea, and they agreed!
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19nihGC2NVc
People are complicated.
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26 Oct 2016 20:23 - 26 Oct 2016 20:35 #262765
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Replied by on topic Professor J Peterson Against Political Correctness
Disclaimer: I haven't watched the videos. I'm at work and they won't play.
All I have to say is that calling someone by their preferred pronoun is simple courtesy. It's the same as calling them by their preferred name. If your name was Steve but I insisted on calling you Mitch all the time I'll bet you wouldn't like it much. How is the pronoun different?
I know that I prefer the long form of my name. I don't get mad if you use the short version once or twice but if I've corrected you and you insist on calling me by a name I don't prefer I will be upset. It is likely to cause us to not be friends. The same would go for pronouns since they too are descriptive of who we are.
That said, I do think that use of incorrect pronouns is enough to charge someone with a hate crime.
All I have to say is that calling someone by their preferred pronoun is simple courtesy. It's the same as calling them by their preferred name. If your name was Steve but I insisted on calling you Mitch all the time I'll bet you wouldn't like it much. How is the pronoun different?
I know that I prefer the long form of my name. I don't get mad if you use the short version once or twice but if I've corrected you and you insist on calling me by a name I don't prefer I will be upset. It is likely to cause us to not be friends. The same would go for pronouns since they too are descriptive of who we are.
That said, I do think that use of incorrect pronouns is enough to charge someone with a hate crime.
Last edit: 26 Oct 2016 20:35 by . Reason: grammar problem
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26 Oct 2016 20:33 - 26 Oct 2016 21:27 #262766
by OB1Shinobi
People are complicated.
Replied by OB1Shinobi on topic Professor J Peterson Against Political Correctness
what if i wanted everyone i speak with in any context to call me "grandmaster funktastic, YEAH BIDGES"
or even better, "A Pimp Named Slickback"
yes the whole thing, even the "YEAH BIDGES" and "a pimp named" parts
??
i agree to the extent of calling someone by "him" or "her"according to how they identify
but can someone can make up some [strike]nonsense[/strike] totally new and probably arbitrary word that doesnt actually mean anything, and then have you punished with hate speech for failing to use it?
then what about those who identify as"furry" and believe that they are really girraffes or ardvarks or some other animal?
if people want to be addressed a particular way then fine, im ok with addressing people how they wish
the problem thats being called out here isnt that people want to be identified in different ways, but, as you mentioned, making it a crime not to
if people agree to call you zilbog or nanu-nanu or something then thats very kind of them, but its not a legal obligation and shouldnt be
a pimp named Slickback origin story (language)
or even better, "A Pimp Named Slickback"
yes the whole thing, even the "YEAH BIDGES" and "a pimp named" parts
??
i agree to the extent of calling someone by "him" or "her"according to how they identify
but can someone can make up some [strike]nonsense[/strike] totally new and probably arbitrary word that doesnt actually mean anything, and then have you punished with hate speech for failing to use it?
then what about those who identify as"furry" and believe that they are really girraffes or ardvarks or some other animal?
if people want to be addressed a particular way then fine, im ok with addressing people how they wish
the problem thats being called out here isnt that people want to be identified in different ways, but, as you mentioned, making it a crime not to
if people agree to call you zilbog or nanu-nanu or something then thats very kind of them, but its not a legal obligation and shouldnt be
a pimp named Slickback origin story (language)
People are complicated.
Last edit: 26 Oct 2016 21:27 by OB1Shinobi.
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26 Oct 2016 20:39 #262767
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Replied by on topic Professor J Peterson Against Political Correctness
I'm not sure exactly where I stand on this actual issue yet, but I know that some of the best professors I had in college were the ones who spoke freely and openly about what they believed, even if it wasn't necessarily in line with the university or politically correct. I learned more by disagreeing with them and being forced to defend my stance against them than I ever would by having my feelings coddled by a teacher who was afraid of offending me.
The best part about this whole debacle is that there will be a public debate organized by the university. I really hope both sides are represented by intelligent and articulate people who are well prepared to support their side of the issue. As much as this is a conversation about pronouns, it is also an amazing opportunity to get away from the keyboard warriors on social media and show how actual discourse should take place. I know I'll be watching.
The best part about this whole debacle is that there will be a public debate organized by the university. I really hope both sides are represented by intelligent and articulate people who are well prepared to support their side of the issue. As much as this is a conversation about pronouns, it is also an amazing opportunity to get away from the keyboard warriors on social media and show how actual discourse should take place. I know I'll be watching.
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27 Oct 2016 07:52 #262833
by JamesSand
Somewhat off topic - I do find it curious that so many people oppressed by the stick are turning to the stick to essentially, do the same thing.
Swings and roundabouts hehe.
More laws is very rarely the answer.
(For anyone wondering, I have not had a chance to watch the videos yet- I'm going off the "vibe" of the discussion here)
Replied by JamesSand on topic Professor J Peterson Against Political Correctness
the problem thats being called out here isnt that people want to be identified in different ways, but, as you mentioned, making it a crime not to
Somewhat off topic - I do find it curious that so many people oppressed by the stick are turning to the stick to essentially, do the same thing.
Swings and roundabouts hehe.
More laws is very rarely the answer.
(For anyone wondering, I have not had a chance to watch the videos yet- I'm going off the "vibe" of the discussion here)
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27 Oct 2016 18:55 #262896
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I misread my original post when I edited this. It originally said "That said, I do think that use of incorrect pronouns isn't enough to charge someone with a hate crime." But I thought it said "That said, I do not think that use of incorrect pronouns isn't enough to charge someone with a hate crime." So I edited it to it's current state by removing what I thought was the second of a double negative when in fact I was right the first time.
To avoid confusion I will restate that I do not think it should count as a hate crime to use the incorrect pronoun.
Replied by on topic Professor J Peterson Against Political Correctness
Goken wrote: That said, I do think that use of incorrect pronouns is enough to charge someone with a hate crime.
I misread my original post when I edited this. It originally said "That said, I do think that use of incorrect pronouns isn't enough to charge someone with a hate crime." But I thought it said "That said, I do not think that use of incorrect pronouns isn't enough to charge someone with a hate crime." So I edited it to it's current state by removing what I thought was the second of a double negative when in fact I was right the first time.
To avoid confusion I will restate that I do not think it should count as a hate crime to use the incorrect pronoun.
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27 Oct 2016 20:32 - 27 Oct 2016 21:42 #262904
by OB1Shinobi
People are complicated.
Replied by OB1Shinobi on topic Professor J Peterson Against Political Correctness
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p93NCyV5Hws
heres a transcript of the video
host:
... blah blah blah, dr peterson is with me now because this debate has been simmering around the U of T about political correctness and some people are saying "we dont need to be being referred to by that certain pronoun of "him" or "her" -- but, whats the solution?"
peterson:
well the solution at the moment is mandated use of whatever pronoun someone demands to be referred to by."
host:
can they suggest anything?
peterson:
as far as i can tell they can, and im not trying to be alarmist about this but whats happened since the legislation was introduced is that theres been an explosion in gender identity categories. for example in new york now there are thirty-one protected gender identity categories and, as far as i can tell, there is nothing in the legislation that stops there from being a requirement for people to use a different pronoun for every one of those categories
host
so as a professor when you get a class does do people have to have a sign [like a name tag] on them to indicate which one they are/what they prefer?
peterson
well the practicalities of this are obviously one of the impediments to -- or one of the reasons for the legislation being improperly formatted, in my opinion
i believe that when people were first considering drafting this they thought maybe there would be two-point-one genders, something like that you know, so there'd be "he", "she" and some alternative term which we havent settled on
host
its sort of like years ago when we had miss, mrs, and then people said "well we want ms." except theres only one ms so its just three categories, what youre telling us now is that there could be forty, there could be more
peterson
well theres fifty -eight on facebook
host
so what is the administration at the university saying to you when you say "well this just is unworkable" ?
peterson
they sent me two letters, one of which was a warning and one of which was a more serious warning stating that the fact that i was even having this discussion was probably illegal under the ontario human rights code - WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT I MADE THE VIDEO ABOUT, because i thought it probably WAS illegal
so i do believe that under current ontario law, perhaps even the discussion that we're having right now is illegal.
host
well they arent running in here to arrest so us so we're fine for now
peterson
yes we are fine for now, but the university took that seriously enough to warn me
but i also should say that on friday i went and talked to the dean - because they asked me to stop talking about it - i went and talked to the dean and i suggested that we deal with this like civilized human beings and have a public debate that the university would host on the issue, and they have agreed to do that.
host
so theyre gonna have a public debate and students and others can attend and people can say "well whats the solution"?
peterson
well i dont know if the public will be invited to attend but we are going to have it broadcast on youtube - livecast on youtube
i think its going to be restricted to the university community but we are going to have a debate about it
host
so its not really just you then and the university, what is happening is that the university is saying "we have provincial law now which dictate certain actions on our behalf"
peterson
well i think that they ar every concerned about that yes - they actually thanked me, the dean of the faculty of arts and sciences david cameron actually thanked me for bringing this to the attention of the university community
host
yeah hes not a stupid man
peterson
no hes not, by, by no means
host
right so hes sensitive to this but theyre referencing provincial law, so when was the law changed? approximately
peterson
bill c-16 is the law at the federal level and it just passed second reading
and this is law in five provinces already and is about to become national law
and i also should point out that it makes discussion around pronoun use and around gender identity subject to the provisions of hate-speech - its not good
host
well it sounds like "fahrenheit 451" or something
peterson
yes, it does
im posting this because not everyone can watch the videos and plenty who can just arent going to, but if its printed for you maybe that will make the difference to just read it and get an idea of the direction
peterson made his original video because he interpreted the language of the bill to make it a crime of hate speech to even talk about gender identity and pronoun usage in a way that migh ofeend someone or "make them feel uncomfortable"
and he explains that in detail in the first video iirc
so his position is that
1) its stupid to make it a crime to have differing opinions, even on issues that are personally important
and
2) its problematic for university professors (for example) to be restricted by "feelings" when talking about issues as fundamental to life as gender
a person might not like what they hear but that doesnt mean it is wrong and in the business of (life) education, people need to be able to speak honestly about facts and issues even if some of that seems offensive to our feelings sometimes
and most importan
3) he has some expertise on totalitarianism and it often begins with laws which restrict speech, but these laws dont simply restrict speech, they require you to speak using only government approved language, which is a very dangerous direction for society to take
he said from the begining of his veides on this topic that he did believe that what he was saying was against the law, and that bothered him a lot
so basically he broke the law and posted it to the internet in order to call attention to the injustice of the law
thats pretty Jedi imo
heres a transcript of the video
Warning: Spoiler!
host:
... blah blah blah, dr peterson is with me now because this debate has been simmering around the U of T about political correctness and some people are saying "we dont need to be being referred to by that certain pronoun of "him" or "her" -- but, whats the solution?"
peterson:
well the solution at the moment is mandated use of whatever pronoun someone demands to be referred to by."
host:
can they suggest anything?
peterson:
as far as i can tell they can, and im not trying to be alarmist about this but whats happened since the legislation was introduced is that theres been an explosion in gender identity categories. for example in new york now there are thirty-one protected gender identity categories and, as far as i can tell, there is nothing in the legislation that stops there from being a requirement for people to use a different pronoun for every one of those categories
host
so as a professor when you get a class does do people have to have a sign [like a name tag] on them to indicate which one they are/what they prefer?
peterson
well the practicalities of this are obviously one of the impediments to -- or one of the reasons for the legislation being improperly formatted, in my opinion
i believe that when people were first considering drafting this they thought maybe there would be two-point-one genders, something like that you know, so there'd be "he", "she" and some alternative term which we havent settled on
host
its sort of like years ago when we had miss, mrs, and then people said "well we want ms." except theres only one ms so its just three categories, what youre telling us now is that there could be forty, there could be more
peterson
well theres fifty -eight on facebook
host
so what is the administration at the university saying to you when you say "well this just is unworkable" ?
peterson
they sent me two letters, one of which was a warning and one of which was a more serious warning stating that the fact that i was even having this discussion was probably illegal under the ontario human rights code - WHICH IS EXACTLY WHAT I MADE THE VIDEO ABOUT, because i thought it probably WAS illegal
so i do believe that under current ontario law, perhaps even the discussion that we're having right now is illegal.
host
well they arent running in here to arrest so us so we're fine for now
peterson
yes we are fine for now, but the university took that seriously enough to warn me
but i also should say that on friday i went and talked to the dean - because they asked me to stop talking about it - i went and talked to the dean and i suggested that we deal with this like civilized human beings and have a public debate that the university would host on the issue, and they have agreed to do that.
host
so theyre gonna have a public debate and students and others can attend and people can say "well whats the solution"?
peterson
well i dont know if the public will be invited to attend but we are going to have it broadcast on youtube - livecast on youtube
i think its going to be restricted to the university community but we are going to have a debate about it
host
so its not really just you then and the university, what is happening is that the university is saying "we have provincial law now which dictate certain actions on our behalf"
peterson
well i think that they ar every concerned about that yes - they actually thanked me, the dean of the faculty of arts and sciences david cameron actually thanked me for bringing this to the attention of the university community
host
yeah hes not a stupid man
peterson
no hes not, by, by no means
host
right so hes sensitive to this but theyre referencing provincial law, so when was the law changed? approximately
peterson
bill c-16 is the law at the federal level and it just passed second reading
and this is law in five provinces already and is about to become national law
and i also should point out that it makes discussion around pronoun use and around gender identity subject to the provisions of hate-speech - its not good
host
well it sounds like "fahrenheit 451" or something
peterson
yes, it does
im posting this because not everyone can watch the videos and plenty who can just arent going to, but if its printed for you maybe that will make the difference to just read it and get an idea of the direction
peterson made his original video because he interpreted the language of the bill to make it a crime of hate speech to even talk about gender identity and pronoun usage in a way that migh ofeend someone or "make them feel uncomfortable"
and he explains that in detail in the first video iirc
so his position is that
1) its stupid to make it a crime to have differing opinions, even on issues that are personally important
and
2) its problematic for university professors (for example) to be restricted by "feelings" when talking about issues as fundamental to life as gender
a person might not like what they hear but that doesnt mean it is wrong and in the business of (life) education, people need to be able to speak honestly about facts and issues even if some of that seems offensive to our feelings sometimes
and most importan
3) he has some expertise on totalitarianism and it often begins with laws which restrict speech, but these laws dont simply restrict speech, they require you to speak using only government approved language, which is a very dangerous direction for society to take
he said from the begining of his veides on this topic that he did believe that what he was saying was against the law, and that bothered him a lot
so basically he broke the law and posted it to the internet in order to call attention to the injustice of the law
thats pretty Jedi imo
People are complicated.
Last edit: 27 Oct 2016 21:42 by OB1Shinobi.
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28 Oct 2016 04:32 #262935
by JamesSand
Replied by JamesSand on topic Professor J Peterson Against Political Correctness
Welp, it turns out you're all guilty of thought crime.
I've notified the appropriate authorities.
Don't worry about answering the door, they won't knock
I've notified the appropriate authorities.
Don't worry about answering the door, they won't knock
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