On Earning Respect (Split from RESPECT)

And if you strip them of their basic rights and show them no respect
Dont you then become as they are?
So then who judges you?
If you denie them should you not then also face the same thing
And so on and so on and

(From brennas post)

I'll respond as soon as I see the thread split

OB1Shinobi wrote: well, sorting out the right from wrong is important, and people come at the same issue from different perspectives, so its only natural that it takes the form of a debate from time to time

i think the distinction is somewhere around looking at conversations as a battles vs looking at them as creative, cooperative exploration

Too often there is no easy or "right" answer to a question, though, and pursuing one can be destructive vs. constructive. I left that line as-is for a very specific reason: rather than viewing our discussions as "creative, cooperative exploration", we do tend to view them as "battles."

With the current change, that meaning (which is one of the most important elements of RESPECT) is obscured at best, eliminated entirely at worst.

Split.

In my opinion respect is the default setting and then a person can lose my respect. In that regard respect is earned in that they have to maintain it, but I refuse to treat people I've just met without respect.

Maybe we should discuss what we mean when we say respect. When I say that I treat strangers with respect I mean that I smile, I say please and thank you, I don't insult them or hit them, basically I treat them in a manner that I would like all strangers to treat me. Some might just call it being polite, others might call it not being a jerk. I call it treating people with respect.

Once I get to know a person they can raise that level of respect to that with a capital R, maintain that level respect, or lose my respect.

Brenna wrote: There are some schools of thought that believe that such atrocities continue because there are no real consequences. Third world dictators come mind

Should someone who has stripped another of their basic rights and respect be permitted to have that which they have denied others?

Consequences should be had, but they should be consequences that are measured and just and within the realm of human rights.

If we strip someone of the human rights that they deprived of others, we become like them. That is not justice, it's revenge.

elizabeth wrote: And if you strip them of their basic rights and show them no respect
Dont you then become as they are?
So then who judges you?
If you denie them should you not then also face the same thing
And so on and so on and

(From brennas post)

imo
the reason to uphold basic human rights is not at all because the person deserves them but because the only moral authority we have comes from the restraint that we show towards our "enemies" and those under our power

if we act as they act then we are no better than they are, if we uphold higher standards then we in fact are better than they are

M split this whilst I was looking for the other thing ... Now I don't know what the hell I just responded to ...

Respectfully, of course ...

So, here it is again :

Alexandre Orion wrote:

Respect

As with Justice, the concept of 'Respect', though we all seem to think we know something about it, have been educated well to behave according to it, it has never been universally agreed upon as to whom or what we owe Respect, what are its scope and conditions. In the 20 or so generations that have followed 'humanism' and the popularisation of notions of Liberty, we have amplified our explorations of what 'Respect' could be as well as our ways of institutionalising dis-Respect. We have certainly all had time to memorise the litany of 'kinds' of Respect : Respect for Life, Respect for minorities (sic), Respect for gender and sexual orientation, Respect for diverse cultures, Respect for age, for religions, for economic status and for handicapped persons. There is also the Respect due to the environment, property and of course the law, codes of conduct and rules. Herein is also the underlying and over-arching necessity for self-Respect, without which really none of the other forms would be feasible.

Personally, I consider the Respect to be a meta-quality, just like Justice. We may forever be refining it, defiling it, categorising it in different and varying ways, but perhaps never having a comprehensive empirical knowledge of it. Like, say, 'Perfection', these will remain eternally beyond our grasp.

Before we go rambling on about 'Respect', we first need to get a starting point : what are we really talking about ? Is it a feeling or an action ? Is it a value, and how do we arrive at it ? What feelings, attitudes and kinds of behaviour are implicated ? Is it a duty ? Are there different kinds of Respect and what differentiates them ?

So, one quickly realises that we are not on about a very simple topic. Respect comes to us from Latin, 'respicare', which means to 'look back at' or 'to look again'. Thus Respect is a manner of recognition ; there is some quality of that which is Respected which is already known, either empirically or hypothetically. Moreover, 'Respect' is always transitive : it is the relation of a subject to an object*. Respect must moreover be a self-conscious and rational response, not merely instinct. It is, in some regards, a way of 'objectifying' that which is regarded, to perceive it as it is from outside of the influence of one's own desires or affinities – to appreciate the object in-and-of itself.

Respect is different from other ways of relating to others as it is not entirely self-generated. It is what we could call 'deontic' (or reflexive), as it is a response elicited from the recognition of the object commanding a particular relationship to it ; it is not a valuing solely from the perspective of the subject's (the one doing the 'Respecting') interests. Thus, since it is not self-generated it is voluntary ; we do not control whether we 'like' or 'fear' someone/something, but 'to Respect' is conscientious (though not necessarily a 'choice'). Respect then, could be a particular way of paying an oriented attention ; it is reasoned, not intuited, not 'felt'.

Unlike our feelings about things, Respect is as much objective as subjective. It is subjective in that it comes out of what we know about the qualities of the object Respected. Therefore, due to the subjective nature of the assessment of the object's qualities, one can very easily 'respond' inappropriately – not necessarily in disRespecting the object, but in perhaps purveying the wrong kind of Respect, or to a degree that is without proper grounding. On quite the other hand, Respect is objective in that the Respect-solliciting qualities of the object are independent of the subject. The object places limitations on our margin of action (we are not alone and cannot do as we please) ; Respect of the object takes as axiomatic that the object would be respectable for others, at least that the grounds for Respect be generally admitted. Also, the qualities of the object that are Respect-warranting are likewise Respect-warranting with regard to any other object bearing them.

Consequently, Respect is a value-judgement based behavioural commitment. It is the relationship-based negotiation of conduct according to subject-object qualitative abstraction. The relationships, whether they be dominance, reciprocity or communality, and each agent therein, determine (sometimes badly) the measure of Respect to be manifested in any given social situation.

From a personal standpoint, it is very irritating to me to hear another commanding respect or estimating the respect s/he is due from someone else or that others must exhibit. Given the very imprecise nature of Respect – not to mention that it has been matter for lively debate between moral philosophers and ethicists for at least a million years - it strikes me as unlikely that anyone could very genuinely arbitrate the respect that one owes another. Certainly there may be some tell-tale signs that considerable Respect is missing, but the form and manifestation of that Respect is not another's jurisdiction (as much in the case of dispensing Justice). We can only hope to teach better schemes of quality discernment whereby Respect can be refined. As was mentioned before, Respect is neither akin to “liking” nor “fear”. As it is the property of Reason, neither of these ways of commanding Repect can deliver it.

*Note : “Object” here does not denote a 'thing'. The “object” herein refers to the recipient of the 'act' of Respecting.

Good idea, Alex.

My take:

tzb wrote: Respect

In order to learn from others, and see others as "worthy" of our trust, compassion, and in some cases perhaps even our mercy, we must cultivate respect for them. Respect is a subjective quality relating to our ability to perceive worth or value in others. We act with respect by treating others kindly, and a lack of respect in treating them without due consideration and empathy.

Resepct is often described as something people earn. Whilst I believe it's true that to some extent, I can grow to respect people more than when I first meet them, I prefer to think that respect is something to be extended to all beings - all life. If I meet a person in the street, my default tone is not disrespectful, nor is it likely I would treat an animal with an absence of respect had it not done me some service prior to my making the judgement.

Respect, then, is an attitude, a demeanour, as well as an attribute we can percieve in those around us. Respect implies a certain regard for the feelings, opinions and motivations of something other than oneself, an outward-facing empathy and compassion, as well as a willingness to learn from others (perhaps that is true compassion anyway?), rather than a conceited or arrogant attitude that we ourselves must know better than others.

Perhaps this is a reflection of the Jedi way, to be respectful of all beings by default. We recognise the primacy of the wider Force and do not seek to aggrandize our own position or belief. To be one with the Force is to recognise its influence, relevance and presence in all things. How can we go through life without respect if we truly believe in the Force?

And that begs the question - can respect be truly lost, knowing what we know as Jedi? That's a difficult one. Through compassion we can realise the failings of others, which might induce us to lose respect for them, are down to difficulties on their part. People don't want to be small-minded, by and large. They don't ordinarily set out to be "bad people", and even when they do that's usually a symptom of some underlying lack in their own life up to now. I can't honestly say there are people who deserve no respect at all, or even less than others. Perhaps it's those who seem to deserve it least who would benefit the most from that compassionate brand of respect I'm describing.

That said, self respect is an important facet of this picture. It's that old paradox... before we can help others, we must help ourselves. And with respect, before we can truly respect others, I feel we must have respect for ourselves. If we live in a world where we feel we are worthless in comparison to all others, our attribution of worth in the form of respect to others is essentially meaningless. What position are we in to judge others as either worthy of respect or not, if we can't respect ourselves?

Self respect involves learning to be "OK" with who we are, the path we've taken and the decisions we've made. Perhaps here it's true to say that respect is earned, as for myself personally it's a struggle to be kind to myself, to regard my own decisions and actions in the past without recourse to blame and other disrespectful modes of thought. Perhaps this is the major learning point I've taken from this lesson: If I am unkind to myself in regard to my former decisions and actions, it's unlikely that I can be fully respectful of others. Where I might forgive or excuse another, I'm far more likely to criticise and "expect better" of myself.

Respect is necessary for Jedi not solely because our philosophy and belief in the Force implies a brand of universal respect for "The Other"; without respect we lose our power as mediators and agents of aid and support to those around us. Without understanding the subjective nature of respect, and the protocol of bestowing respect (ie acting respectfully, across cultural and societal bounds), we cannot fully serve our aims as Jedi. Respect is not something a Jedi should wait to earn. We should act with respect for others by default, and thereby cultivate the same universal respect from those we encounter, however unlikely that respect may seem to others.

This is the root of Jedi belief in the sanctity of all life: all life is one in the Force, and by respecting any fraction of that totality, we show disrespect to the wider whole. We must respect the balance, the unity, rather than just the aspects we find most palatable ourselves.

Yay! Joining in here:

Rosalyn J wrote:

Respect

What is respect? According to Webster's dictionary: one definition (the one I will use here) is esteem for or sense of worth or excellence of a person, a personal quality or ability, or something considered a manifestation of a personal quality or ability. The key phrase here is "esteem for a sense of worth or excellence ". That is, values based on qualities and or ability. Well when one has a disability, it is often felt qualities and abilities are curtailed in some areas, and that we must make up for it in others. This may only be my story perhaps. Maybe we spend some part of our life thinking that they must strive to prove ourselves to the world or to our own world the people we respect and admire. I did that for very long time I still do. What I really want to know is what respect looks like. That is what I'm going to explore in this essay. My own thoughts on what it looks like.

I base my view of respect on how I was brought up. During my childhood respect is given to parents, older adults, and since I was often the littlest child, I was respecting pretty much everyone, but very few were respecting me. There was also this layer added to me by my disability. To this day it seems it took me longer to "grow up" than those who were even younger than I. Even as I say that I have to ask myself "what does 'growing up' like?" Growing up, if I am to be honest, looks like no longer be naïve to the mysteries of the world. Or perhaps it means speaking in a way that shows you mean business. Knowing and perhaps showing by word or deed that you can get what you want. So it seems that this respect is based on either subduction or intimidation. When I think about it that's not what I want at all especially being a Jedi.

I could base my view on another experience, my time with my church. I began attending this church in 2006 at 19 years old. I became very committed to the church and its goals such that there if there was a board, unless it was gender specific, I was on it. I became a junior steward at 20 and a full Steward and 24. At the time of graduate school, I was beginning to experience some burnout. The course load for grad school was markedly different from undergrad in terms of rigor, so I asked to take a leave from my church duties. It was granted I did not anticipate a loss of what I considered a privilege to be so great nor the loss of respect. I still wanted to sit in meetings, to have my considered in value. After all I had spent six years in that position.
But what I really wanted from them was very dependence on me. I wanted them to feel like they would be unable to move without me. I wanted to have that level of power. The sort that meant that people would consult me before making decisions. I wanted to be esteemed an expert. But as Tao 3 it says "if we over esteem great men, people become powerless ". Though I wanted that then,I can see how selfish it is now. I don't want that kind of respect.In both examples I have demonstrated that respect as I understand it was getting people to long war to fear or to depend upon me.

Now that I've looked at to personal experiences concerning respect, I'd like to look at the etymological meaning of the word, the roots. It was brought to my attention by Maitre Alex that the definition of respect as it's commonly defined and it and the etymology are different. The word respect can be broken down as follows re- to do something over/again. Spect- to look, look being defined as something like consider, assess, judge etc. Not simply "to see". So then respect is the act of considering something again, assessing something again, judging something again. It is then not something one gets, but something one does. One looks back on life, to people, on events, on actions. Knowing this is a load off my shoulders. I don't yet know what the purpose of respect is, but at least I know it's not something I have to strive for, but something I can do.