The loss of the secular state of Turkey

Miss_Leah wrote:

OB1Shinobi wrote: should you peacefully coexitst with a tyrant?

if the authorites are violating human rights and creeping themselves into a dictatorship, are those who resist to be seen as the cause of conflict?

If they're using violence, isolating the people from the rest of the world, and killing people, then they're causing conflict, yes. The're not the root of the problem, but they're certainly not helping.

theyre not helping when they fail lol

when they succeed they can be pretty helpful, especially in turkeys case, where, as has been mentioned, the custom has been for the military to coup when the government strays from the constitution, which this one seems to be doing more and more openly

customarily, the turkish military hands the power back to the people and the nation tries again

now the pres has got a license to completely overhaul the military, getting rid of anyone who isnt loyal to the president (over the constitution) and ensure that the one force who could threaten him is now under his control

some even suggest he is responsible, though i couldnt venture a guess

he certainly gained from it

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im not of the opinion that you ought to be peaceful when someone is stepping on your neck

OB1Shinobi wrote:
theyre not helping when they fail lol

when they succeed they can be pretty helpful, especially in turkeys case, where, as has been mentioned, the custom has been for the military to coup when the government strays from the constitution, which this one seems to be doing more and more openly

customarily, the turkish military hands the power back to the people and the nation tries again

now the pres has got a license to completely overhaul the military, getting rid of anyone who isnt loyal to the president (over the constitution) and ensure that the one force who could threaten him is now under his control

some even suggest he is responsible, though i couldnt venture a guess

he certainly gained from it

This is why I suggest that it's maybe not as helpful as it seems, because the cycle continues.

When does democracy stop being democracy though. Freedom of speech, press, fair and transparent elections - once those things are corrupted it becomes the appearance of democracy but not really democracy. I'd hate to imagine Muslim nations feeling forced into taking more fundamentalist stances to appease a threat from folk like the IS.... for their sakes.

Meanwhile in Turkey, the gov has taken this particular opportunity to dismiss 2,745 judges for "links to US-based cleric Fethullah Gülen", the leader of a reformist Muslim movement..... or perhaps for not agreeing with the government changes towards Sharia law!? Yikes, I'm gonna cover my eyes now. Good luck Turkey!! I hope they don't have another iconoclasm!!!!

The protesters sure found a lot of flags really quickly...

And this is not a picture of Mustafa Ataturk, founder of the country :



But one of the man currently in power.

The country was founded by the military and has been maintained by it. The current government has a patchy record, and its latest announcements don't make this record look any better. The military on the other hand has got a pretty good record when it comes to protecting turkish integrity and the democratic process (through previous coups, no less!)

Those average Joes who opposed the military coup for perfectly understandable reasons are undoubtedly finding themselves in an even worse position now, only just realising there had already been a coup in their country, albeit a silent one.

Adder wrote: When does democracy stop being democracy though. Freedom of speech, press, fair and transparent elections - once those things are corrupted it becomes the appearance of democracy but not really democracy. I'd hate to imagine Muslim nations feeling forced into taking more fundamentalist stances to appease a threat from folk like the IS.... for their sakes.

Meanwhile in Turkey, the gov has taken this particular opportunity to dismiss 2,745 judges for "links to US-based cleric Fethullah Gülen", the leader of a reformist Muslim movement..... or perhaps for not agreeing with the government changes towards Sharia law!? Yikes, I'm gonna cover my eyes now. Good luck Turkey!! I hope they don't have another iconoclasm!!!!

Muslim nations already feel forced to do that Adder , take Indonesia , they wanted to ban sharia laws for the sake of the people and immediately were threatened by fundamentelist with attacks. Fundamentelists dont want peace , they want their laws and principles and values applied and they will not take no for an answer. There is no middle ground for them , they dont want to talk they want you to obey their faith or ideology.

For Erdogan its logical in some way to connect the coup to Gulen , Gulen is a long time enemy and thorn in Erdogan side , but there is no proof whatsoever that Gulen is involved. This is just the beginning , of Erdogan pushing his laws and for the people who oppose him. The coup might have made it worse for the people in Turkey now , but as Ren pointed out , Erdogan was eroding human rights it for 13 years now , the coup was a very emotional last resort , but the real revolution has to come from within as always.

And i still have not heard from my friends yet , i have little hope they are still alive and if they are , live get even more unbareble for them in Turkey. All i can do is try to reach out and pray.

The world is changing .... and we must be willing to change with it. There is no point trying to resist. We are all just flotsam and jetsam floating on the waves ....

Silas Mercury wrote: The world is changing .... and we must be willing to change with it. There is no point trying to resist. We are all just flotsam and jetsam floating on the waves ....

Sometimes, if we resist, we become the change:

https://www.facebook.com/PeoplesListABC/videos/1656294121363478/

I've been following the situation in Turkey with great sorrow. One of my best friends is originally from Istanbul and I had the chance to visit the city a few years back, when the secular state had already begun to change and slowly fade. My friend was shocked when he noticed the relatively low number of women seen in public, and many of them heavily veiled, when only a few years before, Istanbul was a shining light in the Muslim world in terms of women's freedom and possibilities.

It is true: Erdogan was democratically elected and that has to be respected to a certain degree. But sometimes democratic elections yield very strange results as the people seem to be easily influenced by group phenomena and fiery speeches, with grave consequences. Also, democratic votes aren't always as democratic as they may seem. In the former Soviet Union, there were "elections" as well.

I believe what we're witnessing in Turkey now is the transition from a free society towards a Sharia state. Why and how exactly this can be happening is beyond my knowledge, but male-centricity and dominance play a bigger role. This is a feature of all Abrahamic religions and it took us centuries to overcome this archaic way of thinking in Western society. Alas, it seems to be easily reversible. Let's keep that in mind when we elect our own governments.

I believe the development in Turkey will make Europe and the rest of the world even more vulnerable to extremist influence and violence; and Erdogan didn't wait long to extend his power into other regions. Over the years, he has created elaborate lists of dissidents in other countries and now the Turkish government has begun to threaten its own citizens who are of a different opinion outside of Turkey as well. Being of a different opinion has become a crime in Turkey. Is this democracy? I understand that large numbers of the male Turkish society support Erdogan - but Saddam also had a lot of supporters, so did Hitler (who was also elected). Military coups are probably not the right way to correct such historic mistakes, but in the end, I personally prefer a relatively small-scale solution to the suffering of women, minorities, those who are of a different opinion and potentially to large-scale brutal conflicts over decades to come. Just imagine how much suffering the removal of the national socialist party from power would have prevented in Germany and the world.

In any case, I'm keeping Marta's friends in my meditations and hope that someone stops Erdogan, hopefully through democratic process, before he manages to create a hellish threat to freedom in the world.

Cyan Sarden wrote: but Saddam also had a lot of supporters, so did Hitler (who was also elected).

At the time, Hitler seemed like a great guy who would make Germany great again. Ring any bells ?? Donald Trump.

Hussein, however, I am in the middle of an investigation with a few friends of mine, and we are trying to see if Saddam Hussein was innocent. It's very confusing, and i will let y'all know of the results later.

Silas Mercury wrote: Hussein, however, I am in the middle of an investigation with a few friends of mine, and we are trying to see if Saddam Hussein was innocent.

Innocent in what respect? He might not have had weapons of mass destruction (although he undoubtedly used to possess them - he used poison gas repeatedly during the war against Iran but also against minorities in his own country) and he might not have worked with Al Qeada - so technically he might have been innocent of the what the US and its allies accused him of at that time. But he was a dictator who killed around 180'000 of his own people in prisons, by gassing their villages and by supporting fractions that went after them. Innocence, as everything, is somewhat relative, I suppose.

But anyway, that's not the topic here!