A new terrorist attack in France :( Pray for France

My heart goes out to everyone effected by this, I am truly sorry.
May you find light beyond this darkness, the strength to persevere and the compassion to help everyone heal from this atrocity.
May the Force be with you for ever and always

And now Turkey. The world is on fire. 2016 might turn out to be a veritable annus horribilis.

MadHatter wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

MadHatter wrote: My heart goes out to the people of France. May the Force guide you to healing.

However it is VITAL that we remember that the world is not getting more dangerous. Crime of all sort is falling in all first world nations and even many second and third world ones. We are living longer and having a better quality of life all over the world. We must not let these events darken our view of the world because that is how people fall to fear.

These acts are not Crime, they are terrorism attacks perpetrated by radical extremists and they are increasing. Terrorism and groups like ISIS are now a global threat that operates with impunity due to the failure of our leaders to act. I'm sure Obama in now deep in legislation to enact truck control policies.

These acts are not crime? Murder and terrorism are not crimes? Terrorism might be on the increase but you cant argue that its not a crime. Further its a rarity even with its rise. So perspective is a vital thing here. Its still rare even with it rising and the fact is that on the whole the world is getting safer and better.

They are not acts of crime, they are acts of war.

If we are to prevent atrocities like this from happening, something must be done about ISIS and Al-Qaeda. They must be crushed, not negotiated with.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

MadHatter wrote:

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

MadHatter wrote: My heart goes out to the people of France. May the Force guide you to healing.

However it is VITAL that we remember that the world is not getting more dangerous. Crime of all sort is falling in all first world nations and even many second and third world ones. We are living longer and having a better quality of life all over the world. We must not let these events darken our view of the world because that is how people fall to fear.

These acts are not Crime, they are terrorism attacks perpetrated by radical extremists and they are increasing. Terrorism and groups like ISIS are now a global threat that operates with impunity due to the failure of our leaders to act. I'm sure Obama in now deep in legislation to enact truck control policies.

These acts are not crime? Murder and terrorism are not crimes? Terrorism might be on the increase but you cant argue that its not a crime. Further its a rarity even with its rise. So perspective is a vital thing here. Its still rare even with it rising and the fact is that on the whole the world is getting safer and better.

They are not acts of crime, they are acts of war.

If you define terrorism as targeting of civilians (non-combantants), as I do, then they are acts of crime, not war IMO;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_war
Deserves its own thread if you wanted to explore it more.

Very sad event :pinch:

It's times like this when I find that more than prayer is necessary. Action is necessary in my mind, although not necessarily violent retaliation.

I'd ask what are we doing to counteract the message of hate and death that groups like ISIS spread upon the earth like an infection. Are we educating our children on the cultural differences and religious beliefs of the worlds many diverse peoples? Are we as communities actively promoting public service through volunteering and outreach programs?

I would ask anyone who reads this post a simple request. Today, please do one random kind thing for someone else. It can be paying for someone elses coffee, holding the door open for someone with their hands full, calling an old friend who you haven't seen in a while, or donating a bag of food to your local food pantry.

You could even go to your local red cross and donate blood if you are feeling particularly altruistic.

The point being that as Jedi, we are called to serve others. While keeping others in mind and in prayer, it does little constructively to remedy a toxic situation in which many are suffering and are in need of some kind of assistance.

Adder wrote:
If you define terrorism as targeting of civilians (non-combantants), as I do, then they are acts of crime, not war IMO;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_war
Deserves its own thread if you wanted to explore it more.

Very sad event :pinch:

Thats not how i define it. Criminal acts are done against individuals or organizations for personal reasons to satisfy personal goals or the perceived personal benefit of ones self. Acts of terrorism are committed against a society, a nation, a life style, a gender or a race in the pursuit of achieving a goal greater than the self as defined by an organization/cause or Deity percieved as greater than ones self. The first is done in the pursuit of personal gain, the second is done as an act of personal sacrifice to their cause. That makes terrorism an act of war and, as silas says, needs to be crushed with extreme prejudice.

I dont have the ability to split this off so if the powers that be deem it worthy, please do so.

Kyrin Wyldstar wrote:

Adder wrote:
If you define terrorism as targeting of civilians (non-combantants), as I do, then they are acts of crime, not war IMO;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Law_of_war
Deserves its own thread if you wanted to explore it more.

Very sad event :pinch:

Thats not how i define it. Criminal acts are done against individuals or organizations for personal reasons to satisfy personal goals or the perceived personal benefit of ones self. Acts of terrorism are committed against a society, a nation, a life style, a gender or a race in the pursuit of achieving a goal greater than the self as defined by an organization/cause or Deity percieved as greater than ones self. The first is done in the pursuit of personal gain, the second is done as an act of personal sacrifice to their cause. That makes terrorism an act of war and, as silas says, needs to be crushed with extreme prejudice.

I dont have the ability to split this off so if the powers that be deem it worthy, please do so.

What defferentiates war crimes from other crimes isn't whether victims are combatants or not (let's be fair civilians always are the top victims), but whether the perpetrators are.

Either way, what makes terrorism isn't the status of perpetrators or victims but the intent: If the intent is to terrorise people, then it is terrorism.

The intent of mowing people down at a large gathering probably is to watch them scream in horror as their lives flash before their eyes... So I'd go for probable terrorist act.

Dunno how to unpick this thread, but trying to understand why it happened can be part of grieving....

So terrorism is most easily and therefore best defined by the intended target for me because;

1. The fact that the result being to terrorize is circumstantial IMO as all violence has a psychological impact on the victim, and
2. civilian non-combatants will have this reaction to anything which comprises their safety and way of life whether it was intended to do so or not, and
3. in the same way the motive being religious or political is also circumstantial because all war fits that definition.

What makes those things seem central is just the targeting of civilians.

By targeting civilians it;

1. has the greater psychological effect and
2. is differentiated from normal crime by its apparent religious, political or ideological origin.

Basically its an argument of motive versus target, as the definition of the word. I think motives can be misleading or unknown, and play to the narrative of the offender. I'd rather use the offender association, the groups identity to define motive eg; terrorism (target) by group (offender).

Furthermore, labeling the action based on the intended target is a really good way to define the nature of a threat, because it gives us a good representation of the nature of the activity right there in the label itself! What defines the conduct of violence is usually all about the target, because effort to achieve an effect is usually shaped by it and the tools available to conduct the violence. Motive is too vague in operational usefulness IMO, not without value, but in operational terms the motive of action is usually to create effect and effect is determined by targeting.

This then importantly also effectively differentiates it from conventional war and unconventional war which then benefits from being intended target specific also, being military forces. So then for me, what differentiates it from other crime is the scope, because as explained it really ties into the nature of threat and nature of the target. I've read different views by different organisations about the definition but I'm yet to be convinced..... so all the above is just my opinion, but with reasons!!

I find this entire argument about whether it counts as terrorism or crime very odd. It can be both. In fact, it is both. The attack targeted civilians and was designed to inspire terror. I see no other motive other than to also kill some people. That makes it terrorism.

That said, terrorism is, in and of itself, a crime. You can be arrested for it, you can be tried for it, and you can be convicted of it in a court of law. It is a crime.

This entire argument has been like arguing that stealing isn't a crime, it's theft. Well theft is a crime so it's both theft and a crime.