TOTJO's Endemic Problem

For all of the distaste and angst, I will say one thing. If you want to say something you won't usually get judged about? Come to the Temple. If you want to be yourself and not get picked apart, come to the Temple.

However, if somebody vocally disagrees with you or you are visibly out of line and get corrected, accept it, suck it up and move on. I've said some stupid things and posted some stupid threads. I don't think I have a click here, and for the most part people have been pretty good to me here. Not to mention that most power hungry people here are the ones still doing the IP, and/or working to understand true Jediism.

If this is truly a problem in an Internet based temple I'd say it's more a problem where you hand somebody a straw and tell them to start sucking. Either that, or address the problem then and there with whoever started it over a PM or what have you. It just seems like a simple fix if people had more intestinal fortitude...

E-3_4L_Teeter wrote: Not to mention that most power hungry people here are the ones still doing the IP, and/or working to understand true Jediism.

Your post is a classic example of many of the problems raised by people in the thread I linked to in my OP. Chief among them, dismissiveness of valid concerns and issues, which was far and away the most common single critique of this community in the whole thread. But for the sake of discussion, I'm going to focus on what I've quoted above.

Adi wrote: ... those who do not "buy into" the TOTJO power structure by pursuing an apprenticeship/knighthood sometimes get treated as second-class citizens. I remember questioning a knight's argument in a contentious thread and a novice angrily fired back with something like, "He's a knight, who are you to question him?" I'm Adi - that's who I am. Being further along in [TOTJO's version of] the path does not make someone automatically better, nor does not being far along at all make them worse.

What does that even mean, "true Jediism"? Do we define that? Can *anyone* here define that? That sort of thinking, that you must be far along on the IP before you can cast judgement on anything in this community at all, is something that drives people away and is classic cultishness. I have a great deal of appreciation for the IP. I very much would like to complete it. My first attempt was derailed. I plan to revisit it, if I have time, this summer. Assuming my cynicism doesn't get the better of me and sends me on my way.

But really: what difference does it make? Should I have to wait years (as some people have taken) to finish the IP before I'm allowed to contribute here? In that case, why should I even have the right to post outside of the IP forum? This kind of logic drives people away. No, having completed the IP does not make you better than someone else, nor does it necessarily mean you are further along on the path. You can become a Christian priest and completely, totally miss the point of Christianity. You can also complete the IP and completely miss the point of Jediism. We do not have a monopoly on what "true Jediism" (or common-or-garden Jediism) is. I prefer the way it is here the most, but it is not the only way.

I'm not saying Knights are infallible. Nor am I saying that we should unleash open disrespect. What I'm saying is that sometimes a thick skin goes a long way. People at every level of any society make mistakes. They go hard in the paint and go safeties off pretty often actually. Sometimes it's just better to not take it personally.

Everybody has worth. Everybody rates respect. I've seen people with no rank whatsoever blow people's minds. Sometimes it's a struggle to be heard, sure. But if you keep at it, you will be heard. I was a little abrasive in my last post. If it comes to being nasty, confront the person. I could care less what it's about, I think more people would be humble if they got hit in the mouth more often. As far as clicks go, I just keep doing my thing. It's gotten me tgtis far, I'm sure it won't fail yet.

Speaking of which, I do have to say something in the other thread...

when you join a team, any team, you CHOOSE to follow that team's philosophy...how many teams have you joined that change their philosophy to suit the needs of one person?then another person? and another?...soon enough the team is nothing close to what drew you to it in the beginning, it's now mutated into something disheartening...

totjo is a team, and has made many changes to appease individuals. over the years some changes were made wholesale and drove away large numbers of members that didn't like the changes, and drew in a number of new members that liked the changes...change is a gradual thing, if done overnight it can be catastrophic, if done too slowly it can become stagnant.

there have been changes in the past that i didn't like, and there have been changes that i did like... when you take something in, you take the good with the bad, and remember just because something is bad today does not mean that it's going to be bad tomorrow....

Before I post this, i had one more thought...

I will spin any 'off topic' thread into a thread of its own upon it being reported... Im tired of it...

Sorry about the title, but, it can stay for the moment... Im less worried about it...

There is only ONE prblem, and it is communication, oth in the 'lack of' from council for some, and the 'style' from others... lets try to close these gaps together....

if you want to stoke this fire, please, start a new thread, or bring up an old post and ask "where are we on this?"

or again, send a damn PM....

Anyone do that?

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Jestor: we (Rosalyn and I, and I think Cabur as well) used Google Drive as a collaborative tool. If you'd like, I can turn it into something more digestible for you on your mobile device. Just let me know.

With so many mobile users, i cannot believe it doesnt get posted in a easy to read format, or something we can share eaiser...

As a 'worksheet' I too would find it easier to use that....

Yes Trisskar, i too use the heck out of G.Drive, but, it works like crap on a phone...

Only used sparingly on mobiles...

Frankly, I feel like there's a lack of understanding and patience here. These problems which have been articulated are big problems and they're not going to be solved overnight. There are many things in the works to try to address them.

Evidently, we need to post updates on what we are doing... :dry:

Because some need the reassurance that their concerns are being taken seriously... :side:

This is not a stab either, simply what I see as a fact....

Thus the Council Secretary...

steamboat28
The group that says "if you don't like it, leave" is the same group that continues to wonder why people keep leaving.

You have to admit that there is a point where we can't make everyone happy. You can't honestly believe that every person that comes here we can change ourselves to satisfy what they want? It's just not feasible.

And when I say it, as rarely as I do, I don't mean it in a mean, snobbish way. I mean it in a "maybe you'd be happier somewhere else" way. We're not for everyone, trying to be is foolish. Some people will just be happier elsewhere. That's not a bad thing, it's just that people are different. That's why there isn't just one Jedi group, hell, that's why there isn't just one religion. Different people like different things.

I hope that people understand how much I do want people who are here to be happy here. I feel like what I'm saying probably sounds like that's not true but it really is. I just also want people to be happy even if it's not here, because some people won't be happy here and I can't change that.

I never, ever say it snobbishly either (anymore)... I actually dip my shoulders a bit, in a apologetic pose when I TYPE it... lol...

People join all the time, and ask why they should join TOTJO, I tell them "dont, if you dont want to... No one NEEDS TOTJO..." :blink:

But, the point is a valid one, and where the roles flipped, you can bet your butt the same thing would be said to me, by those who now feel slighted...

We did even try to fix the kana saying in the FAQ... But, no matter how you say it, and pretty it up, it means the same thing...







We love you, and would like for you to find a way for you to stay, but, we cannot drop everything to make you comfortable at this moment... If this is what you are telling us, well, Im sorry, but it wont happen... it takes time...

The idea being put forward is that reshuffling the chairs in the clergy, a process that began only a couple of weeks before discontent about the general state of affairs here reached a critical point, has taken precedence over that.

Your ideas have been discussed long ago... Albeit it was about keeping each other informed in case we were questioned, but, we didnt foresee the need for a Secretary back then either... It died back then...






Such as Council keeping everyone informed...

It has not taken any precedence... Only in the public eye...

The Synod's changes were posted before you and Ros submitted anything to Council....







And then, as i showed with the Kana quote, we have split them out, as we discuss....

And, they simply have not made it out of Chambers... other fires pop up, and we have to concentrate on them....

The change in name/title was something Synod came up with... Not Council...

And, it stalled too, because we are not all in agreement (in Council) about the proposals...

And, as the majority of Synod is NOT on Council, they are taking NOTHING away from other conversations... Now Akkarin and Alex, yes, but, im pretty sure they are handing things, just like I can still get done, what i need done...

We're not talking about those people. We're not talking about the people who will never be happy at TOTJO. We're talking about the ones that would be if these problems we're discussing didn't exist. And they are problems; it's not a matter of belief or doctrine or training that's pissing people off. It's the way people handle one another. It's the way exclusive cliques have set up echo-chambers to reinforce their ideas while drowning out others, mired in a self-congratulatory circle-jerk of philosophical affirmations. That's a real issue.

No sir, they are 'situations'... They can be solved, but not just from our end...

Constructive critisizm is what is needed... Come at me like you do, yes, I am going to come at you right back... Seems to be the only way you can comprehend...

And, as Ive mentioned to you, your way of dealing with things is the problem from this end...

And not just you, but, since I read that as you might be saying the blame resides outside of yourself...

You self acknowledge how you act, and then think its ok? stir up the hornets nest, and, like you do, and then point the finger?

As I am about to tell Adi, I dont know who the fuck you two talk to, but, it is not me...

As the guy with the highest post count (I was anyway, lol) who spends more time here than just about ANYONE, ya think you would ask me, but, ya dont... Whos fault is that?

yet, due to our clashes, neither of you EVER message me to find things out... You "assume"...

Your little tirades of "its not right, burn down the walls, take no prisoners, I am indignatly right, and I shall be heard!! Im not here for myself, and dammit, you circle-jerk mf-ers will rue the day!!!"

they get just as tiring, as all of the dismissiveness must seem to you... youve heard "the squeaky wheel gets the grease? Sometimes, it gets removed... (in this case, it would be you removing yourself... this is NOT a threat)

Wont put on your big boy underroos, and send me a message to ask me a question... I promise to answer with no other input from me personally...

Cool brah...

I have messaged you, and I get little one word answers... I even complimented you in the very last one...

whatever...

but it absolutely must be willing to examine its own faults and fix its shortcomings, especially when they're problems that have had (according to some accounts) several *years* to fester.

It is and does, but not evidently good enough for some...

There is always room for improvement, but, that takes time too, while we are messing around with other stuff...

And, just because someone else thinks there needs to be a change, doesnt mean there needs to be, or that the timing is right...

Did you even bother to ask someone or did you immediately go straight to accusations? I know you feel like you have a special insight because of your work with Ros, but I wasn't a part of that and frankly I don't know who was. The stuff I've been working on was of my own initiative which is pretty much how Clergy work happens. People come up with stuff on their own, put it to either the Synod or the Clergy as a whole and then go from there. Most of what I do goes directly to the Synod.

(emphasis mine) I did indeed ask before I accused. I made sure of what happened and when before I made this post. I even said when I asked about it, "I'm going to be posting something to the effect of, 'This process [of renaming clerical titles] started only two weeks before the Unimportant Thread™, and we have nothing whatsoever about the problems people have brought up?'" There were no objections.

Who did you ask?

A person on Council, or with Council access?

Otherwise, you probably had bad info...

And, to back up what jamie said, this IS the way things get done...

That is how ideas go up.... Ideas 'come down' (such as the TOTJO Heritage tree, my suggestion to Edan)...

Someone has an idea, and then they message someone they respeoct, and then they work on it, and then they present it for review... Not all ideas go like this, but, most...

There have been plenty of ideas from members to come through Council....

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Alright, Adi....

what you read past this point is what i wrote on my phone since I left... Everything above this is what I wrote since I ve logged back into a computer...

Again, and due to no fault of yours, or anyone's, simply my high drive, and effort to help everyone, despite my thinking that I'm not the only mutherfuker here who can answer questions, but seem to do it a lot more than others, thus the reason I'm reached out to via PM to get things done, here are three themes that Rosalyn pointed out, and their statuses....

Again, I will reiterate, by reaching out to me via PM, ya coulda found out real quick where things are, and then shared them.... Instead of commenting off topic in a thread...

But, again, you go the route that is less desirable.... And more drama creating....

So many other people ask me questions, I give answers... There's a (now initiate) who asks me questions, and I answer every one, and if i don't know, I find out... Even if someone ffeels they are not a "favorite" of mine, I'll always do what I can, and help out or answer if possible....

Sigh...

I apologize, your methods, and that of some others really set me off....

It is not how adults should act... Conversations are... If I brush you off, then report me to my supervisor, which, in this case is "call me out"....

"Nastiness in the Community"

This one here is tricky....

If we are to allow for free speech, how to curb this?

Several suggestions have been made, from all levels of TOTJO, but no one answer seems to work...

We tried it with the segregation of levels, with rules, with Modding, with education and conversation....

I think segregation is the best answer quite honestly...

If everyone wants to act like, well, like its the "wild west", well, we may just try to contain it... But, no solution has yet been enacted....

Basically though, you'd think people who act like this fictional group (the Jedi) would try to emulate them more....

And, yes, I've cussed in this post, I mean what I say up and down the rank scale, lol.... I see the irony, lol...

"Dismissiveness by people in charge"

No... We are no more dismissive then anyone else....

For example, the "council letting folks know what we talk about, is being discussed, and HAS been being discussed since 2012.... (EDIT: same picture as above)






Now, with a Council Secretary, it will probably happen in May sometime...







But, it hasn't happened yet, we are adjusting some finer points...

No one is "being dismissed', but, until we have things working, some patience is needed...

Of course, no matter what we do, someone will find something else that needs "fixing", and then we will have to work on that as well... :whistle:

Chill out, send me (or any council member or the secretary) a damn pm...

"resistance to change"

As I said, this machine is in motion, and doesn't change direction on a dime....

There are only so many hours in the day for everything...

Well, except criticism, lol...

Doesn't take much work for an uninformed post.... lol...

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I hope that I have shown you that your concerns are valid, and are under discussion...

Please be patient, as we have many things to do....

we are not some 'all wise' people, who can look at an issue, and instantly know what is wrong...

we have made announcements, and then IMMEDIATLY retracted the change, as the memberhsip howled, lol...

And same here...

We are trying to make good decision, sound decisions, that allow us to work, and keep people informed...

Please, send a fucking PM if you have a question....

Dont we tell all the newbs that?

Ask someone who knows... It does me no good to ask my mechanic how to fix a leaky toilet, while he might have some thoughts on it, he doesnt have the knowledge at that moment to answer me with any real idea....

Alright Mods...

I've reversed my decision....

Feel free to comment in my Mod Journal....

This thread is locked upon OP request....