TOTJO's Endemic Problem

I wish as much attention was devoted to fixing this community's endemic problems as there is to what we call clergy.

When people talk about how TOTJO has a cultish vibe to it, this is pretty much a classic example of what they mean. Instead of focusing on the real problems we have as a community and as individuals, we're engaged in a deep discussion on... what to call clergy. Curiously, no big meetings have been announced to discuss and solve the problems driving people away from this community. No action, as far as we know, has been taken on that.

When did clerical names become more important than people being driven away from this place by nastiness (on the part of knights as well as ordinary plebs), cliques and other endemic problems here? Is this really where the council's priorities lie right now?

Adi wrote: I wish as much attention was devoted to fixing this community's endemic problems as there is to what we call clergy.

When people talk about how TOTJO has a cultish vibe to it, this is pretty much a classic example of what they mean. Instead of focusing on the real problems we have as a community and as individuals, we're engaged in a deep discussion on... what to call clergy. Curiously, no big meetings have been announced to discuss and solve the problems driving people away from this community. No action, as far as we know, has been taken on that.

When did clerical names become more important than people being driven away from this place by nastiness (on the part of knights as well as ordinary plebs), cliques and other endemic problems here? Is this really where the council's priorities lie right now?

There are lots of threads devoted to those issues and people are always welcome to start another if they feel it hasn't been resolved (which I agree, it hasn't). People can talk about other things sometimes without it meaning they stopped caring about the former. Some topics are too big to resolve with one conversation (that's definitely one of them).

Hmm, only moved the one post...

I'll fix that....

Again, Adi, how would you like that fixed?

Only a few seem to have an issue with it, and if the rest of us cannot see it, then how can we fix it?

That thread was dedicated to the clergy, and it should stay on topic...

We need multiple topcis in life, I can be fighting with my wife, and the next sentence is about how our son did something silly...

Life is not a constant battle, there are many things to discuss, lets try to stay on topic, please?

Being an administrator in other groups. I have found that the title and "Jobs" attached to said titles are actually a very integral and important part of fixing deeper problems.

Lets take this current clergy change

Lets say....for sake of argument. They change it to the Colored Priest/Preistess ranks I suggested in the other thread. This not only puts people into these positions. These. Jobs....But gives them a chance to redefine, re-work, and re-change that ranks process towards an even larger goal of deeper problems.

Gotta start some place And these...umm...."Endemic Problems" isn't something that can be solved with a flick of the wrist. In actuality....Changing the names of the Clergy is a Huge Step towards the Council actually listening to their members since....for years (Since its conception) It has been a waved aside complaint/subject. So....I would say they are actually paying much better attention to things these days Just me though.

Gotta start some place And these...umm...."Endemic Problems" isn't something that can be solved with a flick of the wrist. In actuality....Changing the names of the Clergy is a Huge Step towards the Council actually listening to their members since....for years (Since its conception) It has been a waved aside complaint/subject. So....I would say they are actually paying much better attention to things these days Just me though.

As TOTJO grows, it gets harder to listen to 'the one'....

We can cater to each (not really, just for sake of discussion) or, try to make it the most accommodating for the majority...

Council has always listened, it just doesnt always agree...

I dont know how you (Trisskar) ran your sites, and perhaps why they are not, uh, as 'active' as TOTJO, but, structure is what people seek, and once you have structure, it becomes a beast to change directions sometimes...

Its why the cries of the people have not historically been listened to by the US Government, it has its own agenda, and when you get into a group that has a direction, it is not going to meet with the direction of each member...

Simply a fact, although jut as Trisskar has also said we 'dismiss', we dont, we just dont agree sometimes...

But, feel free to continue to discuss it....

Find any organization of this size without "endemic problems" and I'll show you the Holy Grail. There are as many opinions here as there are Jedi, and Jedi are human beings with emotions. From the top to the bottom, this Temple is greater than any one individual and it would be wise for us all to remember this.

Working from the starting point of our Doctrine, I am confident that over time we will continue to find common ground and to move forward, but as with all things in life, we must be diligent but also patient.

Jestor wrote: Again, Adi, how would you like that fixed?

It's complicated. But it starts with an acknowledgement that the problems even exist, which has not happened yet. And no, it is not just me. Last month I was tasked with documenting every single critique and concern posted in that thread, organizing them by theme (we came up with three broad themes) and also documenting solutions that were posed. We also discussed solutions of our own. I had one concrete proposal, only addressing one of the problems (but admittedly, the one that had the most diverse complaints.) I presented all this work and was told it would be sent up the totem pole at once.

This was only, roughly, 2-3 weeks after, I'm told, discussions began about renaming the clerical titles, which, in my opinion, is a trifling subject compared to the things that are driving people away from this community (and no, just because you don't hear about it from everyone doesn't mean it doesn't happen silently.) The majority of us do not speak about it because we're told, implicitly if not outright, that our voices do not matter. In that case, why would we verbalize our grievances?

If Rosalyn wants to post our findings and research publicly, I'm happy to do so. Our efforts show that it is not just "the one" that has issues with the way things have been in this community.

I believe the power structure of this community (the knights and above, to a degree the apprentices as well) is drifting away from those who are not part of that structure — arguably, those are the ones who need that help and guidance the most. If you've made it as far as knight, you've got it made, basically. I am not the only one who feels this sentiment. I have seen this "drift" happen in the year since I joined, others have seen it happen in the years since they joined.

Jestor wrote: I dont know how you (Trisskar) ran your sites, and perhaps why they are not, uh, as 'active' as TOTJO, but, structure is what people seek, and once you have structure, it becomes a beast to change directions sometimes...

Actually they always failed because I had the "Lets do something nice and helpful for the community" mentality The problem is the community dosn't want someone to help. They want someone to lead. I always played the supporting role....not the leading role...well...used to.

Structure is indeed important. Which is why I was saying what i did in my post above. Sometimes the rank (Which is part of the structure) Is more important than people first realize. Members just see it as a publicity self rightous act, when really its just one part of the structure. Changing it, means influencing the whole structure. Which is a good thing. As I said

Jestor wrote: Simply a fact, although jut as Trisskar has also said we 'dismiss', we dont, we just dont agree sometimes....

Actually I said.... " It has been a waved aside complaint/subject" In otherwords. It has been a subject of conversation for many years that has influenced membership and opinions/reflections of this temple and change has not been done until recent. I did not say dismissed, just not acted upon yet.


I was simply providing perspective as I understood it Rank = Structure = Good thing.

I started the thread Adi linked to. I want people to be happy here like I am. I want people to feel included and a part of something. I want people to want to be here. I waaaaaaant yoooou to want me.

Sorry. Had to be done. :laugh:

There comes a time though when we (as a group and as individuals) have to ask ourselves if the problems lie with the group or the individual. We must also ask if it's worth "fixing" whichever is "wrong." If people aren't happy here...as much as I hate saying this and I know people hate hearing it...it's not our job to make them like us. It's our job to be us. Sometimes it's just about who fits with the group.

For example, I would not be happy at a Catholic church, but should I go and tell them to change the things I don't like so that I'll stay? No. I just don't go. I also wouldn't be happy at a Twilight Discussion Group. Do I go there and tell them why they're wrong? No, I just don't go there.

No matter how bad it sounds it is true that we cannot please everyone. No matter how hard we try. You don't think that people were driven away when their first experience at this temple was a 20 page long argument about how people don't feel appreciated enough? Some people probably left because they agreed with those who felt slighted and didn't want to suffer the same fate while some probably left thinking "wow, those Jedi are whiny." It's just a fact that someone will always be upset.

I know there are so many people who hate hearing "if you don't like it you can leave" but there is a degree of truth to it.

It is my sincerest hope that you look at what I have just said and also remember my past history of fighting to help people feel welcome and heard. Know that, as with all things, there is a balance. I want everyone here to be happy, I also realize that sometimes what will make a person happy isn't staying here.