Citizens with guns

People will be evil and violence can manifest at anytime. Expecting the worst and thus preparing for the worst is a symptom of fear. Living in fear perpetuates the problem and results in an atmosphere of "peace through superior firepower" in which everyone is armed and nobody feels safe. The desire to protect yourself from an imminent threat shows the same lack of faith in your fellow man that we like to accuse the government and law enforcement of when they try to control the dissemination and use of firearms. Some believe me to be naive because I do not live my life expecting an armed intruder to enter my house and they may be right, but my experience in life so far tells me that this is not as commonplace as certain media and lobbyists would have us believe.

We can have our semi-automatic weapons with our bigger clips and hunker down for the apocalypse, but in doing so we must understand that now our neighbors feel compelled to do the same and when the crap hits the fan, it just might be them coming through our front door.

I trust my fellow Jedi here and I honestly believe that each of us have similar goals when it comes to being instruments of peace. We just happen to use the tools available a bit differently. In the end, any tactic that makes the world safer is one worth trying and I imagine the solution will always be some combination of reasonable regulation and personal responsibility.

Many of the things that I wish to say have been said very well already so I will simply list the points which I agree with or disagree with.

• I carry a gun every day because I'd rather have it and NEVER need it than need it once and not have it.
• The "well I haven't needed one so far" argument is ridiculous and I sadly hear it all the time.
• We don't need more controlling laws we need more training and understanding.
• Limited mag and clip sizes don't bother me too much but I'd rather not have to deal with it. Chances are that I will never fire my weapon at another person and if I do they will likely be within 10 feet and I will fire about 3 times. But just in case I'm attacked by multiple people I'd like to have more ammo without having to change clips.
• People carrying hollow points is a good idea. I don't want to shoot someone and have it hit someone else because it went all the way through. That's why I have hollow points. I only care about increased stopping power a little.
• Government tyranny 101: Disarm the people you aim to oppress.
• Pretty much every gun owner I know, if you told them that to re-qualify for their permit they had to go shoot would say "Oh darn, you mean you want me to go play with...I mean practice with my gun? Gosh." Gun owners love to use their guns.
• If a person doesn't feel comfortable using a gun then they shouldn't have one, but more people should feel comfortable with one.
• Did I say that we need more training yet?
• Gun safety in schools would be fantastic, and I'm pretty sure used to be a thing, but I'm young so I could be wrong.

Senan wrote: People will be evil and violence can manifest at anytime. Expecting the worst and thus preparing for the worst is a symptom of fear. Living in fear perpetuates the problem and results in an atmosphere of "peace through superior firepower" in which everyone is armed and nobody feels safe. The desire to protect yourself from an imminent threat shows the same lack of faith in your fellow man that we like to accuse the government and law enforcement of when they try to control the dissemination and use of firearms. Some believe me to be naive because I do not live my life expecting an armed intruder to enter my house and they may be right, but my experience in life so far tells me that this is not as commonplace as certain media and lobbyists would have us believe.

We can have our semi-automatic weapons with our bigger clips and hunker down for the apocalypse, but in doing so we must understand that now our neighbors feel compelled to do the same and when the crap hits the fan, it just might be them coming through our front door.

I trust my fellow Jedi here and I honestly believe that each of us have similar goals when it comes to being instruments of peace. We just happen to use the tools available a bit differently. In the end, any tactic that makes the world safer is one worth trying and I imagine the solution will always be some combination of reasonable regulation and personal responsibility.

i want to acknowledge that youve made some very good points in this discussion so far and i do respect your view

i have to respond to this post simply by saying that my life experience has been different

i have been the victim of violence and have seen violent victimization enough to feel confident that a person who is unable to respond to violence effectively is going to be victimized eventually, it is simply a matter of time

but maybe things are different where you live

i dont expect to get into a traffic accident and i am not AFRAID of all the other drivers on the road, but i wear my seat belt when i hit a road people drive faster than around 25-30 mph (56.327 kmh)

the universe itself is wild, the earth is part of the universe, and wild things move about on the face of the earth

this is the nature of nature

civilization has become efficient enough that we actually believe in the appearance of stability and safety

and so we move about in relative confidence, with our minds on whatever pleases us or irritates us or entertains us, but the predatory nature of reality itself is always there, and is not going anywhere

consider these people, who were just enjoying a day at the park with their family and a ginormous bird swooped down and snatched up one of their children

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xb0P5t5NQWM

its no different with human predators

you dont have to live in fear

but there are forces in the world around us which will actively and deliberately attempt our destruction, and that's not going to change, ever

and as a general rule, we have a better chance of dealing with them in an effective way if we stay alert to the fact that they exist, have taken some time before hand to prepare ourselves responsibly

OB1Shinobi wrote:

Senan wrote: People will be evil and violence can manifest at anytime. Expecting the worst and thus preparing for the worst is a symptom of fear. Living in fear perpetuates the problem and results in an atmosphere of "peace through superior firepower" in which everyone is armed and nobody feels safe. The desire to protect yourself from an imminent threat shows the same lack of faith in your fellow man that we like to accuse the government and law enforcement of when they try to control the dissemination and use of firearms. Some believe me to be naive because I do not live my life expecting an armed intruder to enter my house and they may be right, but my experience in life so far tells me that this is not as commonplace as certain media and lobbyists would have us believe.

We can have our semi-automatic weapons with our bigger clips and hunker down for the apocalypse, but in doing so we must understand that now our neighbors feel compelled to do the same and when the crap hits the fan, it just might be them coming through our front door.

I trust my fellow Jedi here and I honestly believe that each of us have similar goals when it comes to being instruments of peace. We just happen to use the tools available a bit differently. In the end, any tactic that makes the world safer is one worth trying and I imagine the solution will always be some combination of reasonable regulation and personal responsibility.

i want to acknowledge that youve made some very good points in this discussion so far and i do respect your view

i have to respond to this post simply by saying that my life experience has been different

i have been the victim of violence and have seen violent victimization enough to feel confident that a person who is unable to respond to violence effectively is going to be victimized eventually, it is simply a matter of time

but maybe things are different where you live

i dont expect to get into a traffic accident and i am not AFRAID of all the other drivers on the road, but i wear my seat belt when i hit a road people drive faster than around 25-30 mph (56.327 kmh)

the universe itself is wild, the earth is part of the universe, and wild things move about on the face of the earth

this is the nature of nature

civilization has become efficient enough that we actually believe in the appearance of stability and safety

and so we move about in relative confidence, with our minds on whatever pleases us or irritates us or entertains us, but the predatory nature of reality itself is always there, and is not going anywhere

consider these people, who were just enjoying a day at the park with their family and a giant hawk came down and snatched one of their children

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xb0P5t5NQWM

its no different with human predators

you dont have to live in fear

but there are forces in the world around us which will actively and deliberately attempt our destruction, and that's not going to change, ever

and as a general rule, we have a better chance of dealing with them in an effective way if we have taken some time to prepare ourselves and if we stay alert to the fact that they exist

Great points, Obi. The vehicle analogy is a good one. Preparation is never a bad thing as long as it doesn't preoccupy one's thinking.

I hate to hear when anyone is victimized and I'm lucky that violence hasn't come to my doorstep the way it has for many others here. Your perspective is helpful to informing my opinions about this and other issues like it.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Senan wrote: People will be evil and violence can manifest at anytime. Expecting the worst and thus preparing for the worst is a symptom of fear.

Is it fear to own a fire extinguisher? Is it fear to own a first aid kit? Is it fear to buckle your seat belt when you drive? Is it fear to own candles and a flashlight for a power outage? Or is it knowing that bad things do happen and having the tools and mindset to face them can save you much grief in the long run.

MadHatter wrote:

Senan wrote: People will be evil and violence can manifest at anytime. Expecting the worst and thus preparing for the worst is a symptom of fear.

Is it fear to own a fire extinguisher? Is it fear to own a first aid kit? Is it fear to buckle your seat belt when you drive? Is it fear to own candles and a flashlight for a power outage? Or is it knowing that bad things do happen and having the tools and mindset to face them can save you much grief in the long run.

Is it necessary to own a firetruck when a fire extinguisher will do? Should I have an ambulance follow me around all day in case I get injured? Should I wear a race helmet every time I get in my car?

Everyone should be prepared, but there is such a thing as being overly concerned. Each of us has to find the balance that makes sense for their circumstances, but it has to make sense. It should not be driven by fear or other irrational motivations. If the power goes out at your house often, flashlights should be in every room. If it happens once a year, maybe one or two will suffice. I readily admit that each of us must make choices based on our environment.

In my circumstance, I believe there will never be a need, nor a justification for owning an assault rifle. In fact, owning one in California will cause me more grief than it is worth. I'll stick with my shotgun and take my chances as I believe it is the appropriate level of preparedness for me. I do not mind if others feel the need for a greater level of protection as long as it is legal and they are responsible about how they use it.

Senan wrote:

MadHatter wrote:

Senan wrote: People will be evil and violence can manifest at anytime. Expecting the worst and thus preparing for the worst is a symptom of fear.

Is it fear to own a fire extinguisher? Is it fear to own a first aid kit? Is it fear to buckle your seat belt when you drive? Is it fear to own candles and a flashlight for a power outage? Or is it knowing that bad things do happen and having the tools and mindset to face them can save you much grief in the long run.

Is it necessary to own a firetruck when a fire extinguisher will do? Should I have an ambulance follow me around all day in case I get injured? Should I wear a race helmet every time I get in my car?

Everyone should be prepared, but there is such a thing as being overly concerned. Each of us has to find the balance that makes sense for their circumstances, but it has to make sense. It should not be driven by fear or other irrational motivations. If the power goes out at your house often, flashlights should be in every room. If it happens once a year, maybe one or two will suffice. I readily admit that each of us must make choices based on our environment.

In my circumstance, I believe there will never be a need, nor a justification for owning an assault rifle. In fact, owning one in California will cause me more grief than it is worth. I'll stick with my shotgun and take my chances as I believe it is the appropriate level of preparedness for me. I do not mind if others feel the need for a greater level of protection as long as it is legal and they are responsible about how they use it.

Which I agree with. However it does seem that you mind considering you supported the idea of using government force to take those choices away from people.

MadHatter wrote:

Senan wrote: I do not mind if others feel the need for a greater level of protection as long as it is legal and they are responsible about how they use it.

Which I agree with. However it does seem that you mind considering you supported the idea of using government force to take those choices away from people.

I should clarify then. Please notice the bold in my statement above. If the California legislature passes a law limiting the size of clips and/or the type of ammunition available in this state in response to the terrorist event that occurred here in December, I will agree with their decision. That is my opinion as a voter. If the Governor signs it into law, we will have to abide by it whether we agree with it or not. That is fundamental to the democratic process.

The legislature in California is voted in by Californians, including representatives from San Bernardino where the attack took place. It includes representatives from traditionally liberal areas such as Hollywood and San Francisco. It also includes representatives from rural parts of Northern California and very conservative and traditionally Republican areas such as Orange County. Some of these lawmakers are supported by the NRA and some are supported by anti-gun lobbyists. They also answer to their constituents (the voters).

If other voters believe this law is over reaching and unnecessary, they should let their representative know that they shouldn't vote to pass it, just as I have let mine know that he should. Ultimately, this decision is in the hands of the voting legislature who we elected. We have made our choices known by whom we selected to represent our voices in the legislative process. Any "government force" applied afterward is simply enforcing the laws we asked them to write and pass. The government is not taking the choice away from you.

This process is most evident when we compare California gun control laws to those of Arizona and Nevada. Two states that share a border with California have VASTLY different ideas about what citizens should be allowed to own and carry when it comes to firearms. The majority of voters in those states clearly feel very differently about guns than most Californians do.

I only become concerned when others feel the need for a level of protection that is illegal and choose to obtain and use it anyway.

People will be evil and violence can manifest at anytime. Expecting the worst and thus preparing for the worst is a symptom of fear. Living in fear perpetuates the problem and results in an atmosphere of "peace through superior firepower" in which everyone is armed and nobody feels safe. The desire to protect yourself from an imminent threat shows the same lack of faith in your fellow man that we like to accuse the government and law enforcement of when they try to control the dissemination and use of firearms. Some believe me to be naive because I do not live my life expecting an armed intruder to enter my house and they may be right, but my experience in life so far tells me that this is not as commonplace as certain media and lobbyists would have us believe.

We can have our semi-automatic weapons with our bigger clips and hunker down for the apocalypse, but in doing so we must understand that now our neighbors feel compelled to do the same and when the crap hits the fan, it just might be them coming through our front door.

I trust my fellow Jedi here and I honestly believe that each of us have similar goals when it comes to being instruments of peace. We just happen to use the tools available a bit differently. In the end, any tactic that makes the world safer is one worth trying and I imagine the solution will always be some combination of reasonable regulation and personal responsibility.

_{Using the above as an example only. Not saying anything bad about it.}

On the same token, wanting guns to go away is a symptom of living in fear. Worrying that someone will come through the door armed to the teeth looking to shoot up the place and you… from my experience in life so far tells me that this is not as commonplace as certain media and lobbyists would have us believe.

I believe guns are like pot, alcohol, knives, bows and arrows, cars and a myriad of other things we don’t actually “need” but we choose to have. :pinch:

I own firearms. I have a CHL. I almost never carry anything anywhere. Why do I have them? Because I like them. Just like my bow, my knives, and my oversized car. But I am responsible with them. I think that is the real key to anything. “Ban guns, only the criminals will have them.” “Everyone has guns and we’re all going to get shot.” These all seem like incredible over simplifications that are grossly exaggerated. :ohmy:

Why do I need to have a gun? I don’t. But like I said before, I like them. I love to go shooting. I love to go hunting. Why do I have a CHL if I don’t carry? It’s like a condom… I’d rather have it and not need it than not have it and need it.

Now, I am not saying that either side of the debate is wrong or right. They both have merit. I just don’t think that an all or nothing approach is the best answer. Here in the US we have lots of laws for guns. An insane amount of laws that are quite frankly ridiculous. :silly: I mean seriously, if you’re a bad guy or have bad intent, you’re going to find a way to carry it out whether guns are here or not. And, having a gun does not make one safe. Especially if you never train with it. What I think people really need is a wakeup call to reality. :whistle: And I don’t mean that in a mean or rude way. I am referring to both sides… the guns will sneak up and kill me group and the guns make me invincible and everyone should have one group. The reality is, there are people that need help. If we spent have the effort we do debating these things identifying those that need help and helping them we might actually begin to make the world a safer, kinder place where we can all get along and enjoy our hobbies. Rather that hobby be painting in the park or target shooting at the range. :laugh:

That’s all.

When those laws infringe on choice because others fear bits of plastic, wood and metal then yes its taking away choice. We have a Constitution that guarantees those rights. A right is not something to be voted on and taken away due to fear and misunderstanding. Better men then me died or gave limb and sanity to preserve those rights and I think that letting people strip them because of ignorance of the tools is a disrespect to those that served. I took an oath to support and defend the Constitution of the United States when I enlisted and that oath doesnt expire which is why I stand so firmly against your concepts. I am not a fan of what many people say about the LGBT community but I would never vote for anti free speech laws to censor them. Same way I view guns, sure I dont need or even want some levels of fire power but I've no right to take that choice from others