Mississippi’s Anti-LGBT Law Is the Most Dangerous One Yet

Senan wrote: "Don't write laws that violate my right to do business a certain way based on my religious beliefs... unless I need your laws to grant me permission to discriminate against someone based on my religious beliefs. In that case, please write some laws to help me out."
They are trying to use the very same legislative weapon against others that they were screaming about when it was used against them. It is the worst kind of hypocrisy.

Its is not hypocrisy in my eyes to seek the right to exercise a freedom. Which running your business as you wish so long as it does not cause physical harm to others is a freedom. Might not like how they are using that liberty but that doesnt change that it exists.

ren wrote: Well that's just stupid. With a few exceptions (intersex/hermaphrodite/etc), transgender people obviously suffer from a mental illness. While the "correct" thing these days is to let them indulge in their follies and help them do so, refusing mental health treatment seems like an additional layer of unnecessary madness.

Are you aware of what Gender Disphoria is? Letting them engage in what you call "folly" is the treatment. Also Im not sure where you get the idea that they are refused or do not seek mental health treatment to come to terms with their situation.
"The goal is not to change how the person feels about his or her gender. Instead, the goal is to deal with the distress that may come with those feelings.

Talking with a psychologist or psychiatrist is part of any treatment for gender dysphoria. "Talk" therapy is one way to address the mental health issues that this condition can cause." http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/gender-dysphoria?page=2

Manu wrote:
Let's substitute "homosexuality" with "women voting" (since they are equally evil in the Bible).

You obviously feel Ok with women voting. Others believe it to be a great evil. Forcing them to accept it, is not OK at all to them. Teaching their kids that women voting is cool is not OK with them. etc. Beliefs, conscience, kid's education are their human rights too.

Except voting is a right. Being accepted is not. No one has to like that I am Bisexual and I have no right to a persons goods or acceptance against their will. I think that is a rather important separation.

The worst possible way to define mental health would be adherence to established norms, as that would stiffle individuality, creativity and growth of humanity.

But I've heard psychologists define mental health being really only the capacity for a person to maintain wellbeing and participate effectively in society, so it will play a part in the view. I think its often very subjective to a culture, and from that perspective we all suffer from degrees of mental ill health from time to time ie its natural. Quick who knows the DSM??????? From certain points of view what we call mental health could be considered chronic mental illness IMO. So the wellbeing measure is easy to understand, but the society one is more tricky for me.

We apparently are hardwired in some extent to be social creatures, but that does not need to mean groups of people - just relating to other people in some/any way (incl. media!). I think it relates to having a sense of participation and a 'place' in the grander ballet of living, but of course also the capacity to participate in that broader society safely and without prejudice. I think its really only that last point which is where transgender is having problems, because its relatively new to society, that 'society' has not yet developed a consensus understanding of the nature and impact of it. We need some hard science to explain what's going on otherwise we get people saying its all in the head... like anything isn't
:pinch:
IMO it should not matter whether it is biological or psychological, in part or whole. But gender is a fascinating topic.... and we seem as a species to have a hard time even working with a simple model of 2 iterations, let alone various. Perhaps we need to let go the concept entirely, and increase privacy/security to the individual level rather then like previously using sex distinction.

In regards to the business rights, I think its the difference between private and public life. If you want to participate in a society then you have to do so according to the rules of that society (public life) and part of that society is maintaining an environment where members of that society are able to participate equally without discrimination. If you don't want to participate in the societies rules, then you don't have to participate in the society and can instead limit that behaviour to your private life. Therefore it is not discriminatory to the activity, it's just limiting it's capacity to operate within the rest of the framework that constitutes the society (to the extent it cannot be a 'business'). It then is the rules of that society which define the nature of that society, and the adherence to those rules which define the nature of the members of that society. If a State wants to become discriminatory, then I'm surprised it's not breaching some federal law but I know not an iota about US law.
:ohmy:

Here, I did a thing :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Tio25t2vMDY

MadHatter wrote:

Senan wrote: "Don't write laws that violate my right to do business a certain way based on my religious beliefs... unless I need your laws to grant me permission to discriminate against someone based on my religious beliefs. In that case, please write some laws to help me out."
They are trying to use the very same legislative weapon against others that they were screaming about when it was used against them. It is the worst kind of hypocrisy.

Its is not hypocrisy in my eyes to seek the right to exercise a freedom. Which running your business as you wish so long as it does not cause physical harm to others is a freedom. Might not like how they are using that liberty but that doesnt change that it exists.

ren wrote: Well that's just stupid. With a few exceptions (intersex/hermaphrodite/etc), transgender people obviously suffer from a mental illness. While the "correct" thing these days is to let them indulge in their follies and help them do so, refusing mental health treatment seems like an additional layer of unnecessary madness.

Are you aware of what Gender Disphoria is? Letting them engage in what you call "folly" is the treatment. Also Im not sure where you get the idea that they are refused or do not seek mental health treatment to come to terms with their situation.
"The goal is not to change how the person feels about his or her gender. Instead, the goal is to deal with the distress that may come with those feelings.

Talking with a psychologist or psychiatrist is part of any treatment for gender dysphoria. "Talk" therapy is one way to address the mental health issues that this condition can cause." http://www.webmd.com/mental-health/gender-dysphoria?page=2

Manu wrote:
Let's substitute "homosexuality" with "women voting" (since they are equally evil in the Bible).

You obviously feel Ok with women voting. Others believe it to be a great evil. Forcing them to accept it, is not OK at all to them. Teaching their kids that women voting is cool is not OK with them. etc. Beliefs, conscience, kid's education are their human rights too.

Except voting is a right. Being accepted is not. No one has to like that I am Bisexual and I have no right to a persons goods or acceptance against their will. I think that is a rather important separation.

I suffer from a condition known as "transplanetary dysphoria". I am meant to be a 4 armed alien with no legs. instead I am stuck in the body of a human. It disgusts me and am in constant pain. My brain wasn't meant to be in a human body, even though it has the size of a human brain, it is in fact wired to be an alien brain. My people and I have petitioned the government to let us change our species on passports and birth certificates, to no avail. Surgeons are so bigoted not one of them will remove my legs and attach them to my neck so that I can feel like my normal self. The state won't provide us with toilet facilities suitable to our species let alone pay for the operations. people sometimes pick on me and tell me my head isn't right when I tell them what I truly am. As a result sometimes I feel suicidal.

If you are to challenge the natural ways, you must first have a solution. the whole attitude "oh this seems nice, let's do it if it turns out to cause problems for the future someone will probably manage to sort them out" must stop. So yes, I do think it is perfectly fine for someone to believe a population which increasingly mutilates its reproductive organs is not healthy and not getting healthier. I support their decision to shield their kids, themselves, employees, customers from it. They're the ones who look like they've got the backing of 4.1 billion years of evolution and will keep going. We look like we're about to go extinct. And that's fine too. I'm not opposed to self-destructive behaviour... but let's not pretend it is something else.

MadHatter wrote:

Senan wrote: "Don't write laws that violate my right to do business a certain way based on my religious beliefs... unless I need your laws to grant me permission to discriminate against someone based on my religious beliefs. In that case, please write some laws to help me out."
They are trying to use the very same legislative weapon against others that they were screaming about when it was used against them. It is the worst kind of hypocrisy.

Its is not hypocrisy in my eyes to seek the right to exercise a freedom. Which running your business as you wish so long as it does not cause physical harm to others is a freedom. Might not like how they are using that liberty but that doesnt change that it exists.

You just pointed out the hypocrisy perfectly. "Seek the right to exercise a freedom" is exactly what transgender people are asking for and these business owners are using religion to manipulate the government into writing laws to deny those rights. Thanks for making that point more clearly than I did.


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Senan wrote:

MadHatter wrote:

Senan wrote: "Don't write laws that violate my right to do business a certain way based on my religious beliefs... unless I need your laws to grant me permission to discriminate against someone based on my religious beliefs. In that case, please write some laws to help me out."
They are trying to use the very same legislative weapon against others that they were screaming about when it was used against them. It is the worst kind of hypocrisy.

Its is not hypocrisy in my eyes to seek the right to exercise a freedom. Which running your business as you wish so long as it does not cause physical harm to others is a freedom. Might not like how they are using that liberty but that doesnt change that it exists.

You just pointed out the hypocrisy perfectly. "Seek the right to exercise a freedom" is exactly what transgender people are asking for and these business owners are using religion to manipulate the government into writing laws to deny those rights. Thanks for making that point more clearly than I did.

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You do not have the right to the property of others against their will. That is not a right, im sorry but its not. You do not own other people or their property so what right are you claiming they are exercising.

MadHatter wrote:

Senan wrote:

MadHatter wrote:

Senan wrote: "Don't write laws that violate my right to do business a certain way based on my religious beliefs... unless I need your laws to grant me permission to discriminate against someone based on my religious beliefs. In that case, please write some laws to help me out."
They are trying to use the very same legislative weapon against others that they were screaming about when it was used against them. It is the worst kind of hypocrisy.

Its is not hypocrisy in my eyes to seek the right to exercise a freedom. Which running your business as you wish so long as it does not cause physical harm to others is a freedom. Might not like how they are using that liberty but that doesnt change that it exists.

You just pointed out the hypocrisy perfectly. "Seek the right to exercise a freedom" is exactly what transgender people are asking for and these business owners are using religion to manipulate the government into writing laws to deny those rights. Thanks for making that point more clearly than I did.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

You do not have the right to the property of others against their will. That is not a right, im sorry but its not. You do not own other people or their property so what right are you claiming they are exercising.

The unalienable rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, to start. Or equal protection under the law as defined in the 14th Amendment to our Constitution. Or the civil rights act of 1964. All of which say this law in Mississippi is illegal, but none of which have anything to say about the rights of business owners to sell stuff. I'd bet neither the Constitution or any other law anywhere says being required to sell stuff to people you don't like makes you a victim of a crime. Show me where that "right" is protected.

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Senan wrote:

MadHatter wrote:

Senan wrote:

MadHatter wrote:

Senan wrote: "Don't write laws that violate my right to do business a certain way based on my religious beliefs... unless I need your laws to grant me permission to discriminate against someone based on my religious beliefs. In that case, please write some laws to help me out."
They are trying to use the very same legislative weapon against others that they were screaming about when it was used against them. It is the worst kind of hypocrisy.

Its is not hypocrisy in my eyes to seek the right to exercise a freedom. Which running your business as you wish so long as it does not cause physical harm to others is a freedom. Might not like how they are using that liberty but that doesnt change that it exists.

You just pointed out the hypocrisy perfectly. "Seek the right to exercise a freedom" is exactly what transgender people are asking for and these business owners are using religion to manipulate the government into writing laws to deny those rights. Thanks for making that point more clearly than I did.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

You do not have the right to the property of others against their will. That is not a right, im sorry but its not. You do not own other people or their property so what right are you claiming they are exercising.

The unalienable rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, to start. Or equal protection under the law as defined in the 14th Amendment to our Constitution. Or the civil rights act of 1964. All of which say this law in Mississippi is illegal, but none of which have anything to say about the rights of business owners to sell stuff. I'd bet neither the Constitution or any other law anywhere says being required to sell stuff to people you don't like makes you a victim of a crime. Show me where that "right" is protected.

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Refusing you service does not take away your rights to life or liberty. You are not free to pursue happiness at the expense of other peoples liberty. Equal protection under the law? What law is applied unequally? That only applies to how the GOVERNMENT applies the law. The civil rights act while I will admit it might have been needed at the time is still a violation of a right to control your property. What law protects your right to control your property? What law protects your rights to associate with people as you please or refuse service? Several. No one owns your property or your body so making you sell them to a person against your will is a violation of your rights. Im sorry but you are claiming a right to the labor or property of other people against their will. That is theft and slavery.

MadHatter wrote:

Senan wrote:

MadHatter wrote:

Senan wrote:

MadHatter wrote:

Senan wrote: "Don't write laws that violate my right to do business a certain way based on my religious beliefs... unless I need your laws to grant me permission to discriminate against someone based on my religious beliefs. In that case, please write some laws to help me out."
They are trying to use the very same legislative weapon against others that they were screaming about when it was used against them. It is the worst kind of hypocrisy.

Its is not hypocrisy in my eyes to seek the right to exercise a freedom. Which running your business as you wish so long as it does not cause physical harm to others is a freedom. Might not like how they are using that liberty but that doesnt change that it exists.

You just pointed out the hypocrisy perfectly. "Seek the right to exercise a freedom" is exactly what transgender people are asking for and these business owners are using religion to manipulate the government into writing laws to deny those rights. Thanks for making that point more clearly than I did.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

You do not have the right to the property of others against their will. That is not a right, im sorry but its not. You do not own other people or their property so what right are you claiming they are exercising.

The unalienable rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, to start. Or equal protection under the law as defined in the 14th Amendment to our Constitution. Or the civil rights act of 1964. All of which say this law in Mississippi is illegal, but none of which have anything to say about the rights of business owners to sell stuff. I'd bet neither the Constitution or any other law anywhere says being required to sell stuff to people you don't like makes you a victim of a crime. Show me where that "right" is protected.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Refusing you service does not take away your rights to life or liberty. You are not free to pursue happiness at the expense of other peoples liberty. Equal protection under the law? What law is applied unequally? That only applies to how the GOVERNMENT applies the law. The civil rights act while I will admit it might have been needed at the time is still a violation of a right to control your property. What law protects your right to control your property? What law protects your rights to associate with people as you please or refuse service? Several. No one owns your property or your body so making you sell them to a person against your will is a violation of your rights. Im sorry but you are claiming a right to the labor or property of other people against their will. That is theft and slavery.

This has never once been an argument about property, but putting your property or service FOR SALE means it can't be STOLEN if someone compensates you for it with money. Slaves aren't PAID. That's how commerce works. If you want to keep your property, don't SELL IT. If you don't want to provide a service, you don't offer it.

This is an argument about whether your RELIGIOUS beliefs allow you to discriminate against certain potential customers and whether that should be LEGAL (which it isn't under the 14th Amendment and the Civil Rights Act so the feds will shoot it down anyway).

There aren't gangs of angry transsexuals looting small businesses or forcing people to sell them things. In fact, transsexuals and homosexuals are already AVOIDING these businesses because they know the owners are bigots. The issue here is that Mississippi has decided to make a sweeping piece of legislation that has nothing to do with business and everything to do with a state government trying to define certain gender identifications as wrong for religious reasons. Leave business out of it and read the original post first. Florists don't need government protection from transsexuals in order to sell flowers.

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Senan wrote:

MadHatter wrote:

Senan wrote:

MadHatter wrote:

Senan wrote:

MadHatter wrote:

Senan wrote: "Don't write laws that violate my right to do business a certain way based on my religious beliefs... unless I need your laws to grant me permission to discriminate against someone based on my religious beliefs. In that case, please write some laws to help me out."
They are trying to use the very same legislative weapon against others that they were screaming about when it was used against them. It is the worst kind of hypocrisy.

Its is not hypocrisy in my eyes to seek the right to exercise a freedom. Which running your business as you wish so long as it does not cause physical harm to others is a freedom. Might not like how they are using that liberty but that doesnt change that it exists.

You just pointed out the hypocrisy perfectly. "Seek the right to exercise a freedom" is exactly what transgender people are asking for and these business owners are using religion to manipulate the government into writing laws to deny those rights. Thanks for making that point more clearly than I did.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

You do not have the right to the property of others against their will. That is not a right, im sorry but its not. You do not own other people or their property so what right are you claiming they are exercising.

The unalienable rights of life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness, to start. Or equal protection under the law as defined in the 14th Amendment to our Constitution. Or the civil rights act of 1964. All of which say this law in Mississippi is illegal, but none of which have anything to say about the rights of business owners to sell stuff. I'd bet neither the Constitution or any other law anywhere says being required to sell stuff to people you don't like makes you a victim of a crime. Show me where that "right" is protected.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

Refusing you service does not take away your rights to life or liberty. You are not free to pursue happiness at the expense of other peoples liberty. Equal protection under the law? What law is applied unequally? That only applies to how the GOVERNMENT applies the law. The civil rights act while I will admit it might have been needed at the time is still a violation of a right to control your property. What law protects your right to control your property? What law protects your rights to associate with people as you please or refuse service? Several. No one owns your property or your body so making you sell them to a person against your will is a violation of your rights. Im sorry but you are claiming a right to the labor or property of other people against their will. That is theft and slavery.

This has never once been an argument about property, but putting your property or service FOR SALE means it can't be STOLEN if someone compensates you for it with money. Slaves aren't PAID. That's how commerce works. If you want to keep your property, don't SELL IT. If you don't want to provide a service, you don't offer it.

This is an argument about whether your RELIGIOUS beliefs allow you to discriminate against certain potential customers and whether that should be LEGAL (which it isn't under the 14th Amendment and the Civil Rights Act so the feds will shoot it down anyway).

There aren't gangs of angry transsexuals looting small businesses or forcing people to sell them things. In fact, transsexuals and homosexuals are already AVOIDING these businesses because they know the owners are bigots. The issue here is that Mississippi has decided to make a sweeping piece of legislation that has nothing to do with business and everything to do with a state government trying to define certain gender identifications as wrong for religious reasons. Leave business out of it and read the original post first. Florists don't need government protection from transsexuals in order to sell flowers.

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So I can come to your house kick the door in and take a craigslisted TV and toss money at you and its not theft. Im sorry but if I own a business and do not wish to sell to someone then forcing me to is theft no matter the money you toss at me afterwards. I am Bisexual and if a member of the Phelps family calls me and asks me to fix a computer which is a service I offer should I be compelled to do the work? Also forcing you to work against your will isnt slavery because you are paid? So I could capture a person and make them work my yard so long as they get money? Im sorry but then slavery never existed in the US by that logic as those supposedly enslaved got compensation via housing, food, clothing, and some medical care. Im sorry but you have no right to the property of others against their will. If a person doesnt want to sell to you then you dont have a right to force it at the barrel of a government gun. I covered almost all of this in other posts already really.