Spiritual Narcissm

Mace Windu: The boy has exceptional skills.
Obi-Wan: But he still has much to learn, Master. His abilities have made him... well arrogant.
Yoda: Yes. Yes. A flaw more and more common among Jedi. Too sure of themselves they are. Even the older, more experienced ones.

MartaLina wrote: I soo get your point Snowy, but i am only human too

Ah, I meant the author of the article was judging him when I said "Way to judge the hell out of somebody and make him look bad", not you, Marta! I was poetically responding to the author of the article as if he could hear.

I do that probably way too often.

I wonder how many times something like that's happened and people thought I meant them. Ack!

if someone is sitting there with their eyes shut, concentrating and motionless, and i come along smash their toes i would feel terrible! i would totally expect them to say something

when i think someone has stepped on my toes, i will say something

i do forgive
sometimes quickly and sometimes less quickly, but one thing that I can say for myself is that I dont hold on to grudges for very long

unconditional loving kindness - i think it is really amazing when a person reaches that level - but the level that I am at is "dont let people step on your toes"

being stepped on, or feeling that i have been stepped on, I react

its an immediate reflex oft as not, and overall i am actually glad for it, because there was a time when I didnt react, and what i learned from that is that if you dont react when people step on your toes, more people will step on your toes, harder

as of now i am working and hoping to fully mature into "dont step on other peoples toes"
but as you might have noticed, i have problems with that too sometimes

"dont kick them in the shin when they step on my toes" is way out of my league for the time being

but i have tons of respect for those who can really do it from a place of love and power

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i am a critical person - critical of myself and critical of others, i have made progress in that but its still there - at the risk of being both critical and hypocritical, i think that anytime someone takes the position that THE OTHER is acting out of ego or narcissism, it is a good indication that they themselves are, or at least that they very well may be - talking out of their own ego

thats not ALWAYS the case, its true that sometimes we can see someone is clearly a narcissistic jerk, but
in the realm of ego and self importance, people are not all that different

we express it differently, maybe

but if you have never realized how much your own ego drives you to your actions then I am quite confident that it is still running the show lol

your'e the cart and its the horse - who the driver is, god only knows lol

i say this knowing that I am sometimes the cart and sometimes the horse and sometimes the horses ass, depending on the moment lol

we're all the same in that, though some people handle it better than others, none of us is immune or special

and those who HAVE come to that realization, and seen the truth of that in their own personalities, know better than to really look down on others for it for very long i think

so i believe that the only person I really have a right to label "narcissist" is ME, and I admit that I am one

Buddhists, in my experience and ironically enough, were especially prone to this (myself included — this is not an indictment of Buddhism.) For me (both with Buddhism and Jediism) the problem was such a great emphasis on self — denying the self, improving the self, etc. And Cabur nailed why that is in our case: a myth of specialness, which can be found in virtually every religion there is. In the Abrahamic traditions, Jews, Christians and Muslims are each God's chosen.

The feeling I've had about Jediism is similar to the feeling I had about Buddhism. The emphasis on our selves outweighs our emphasis on others — individuals and societies. In fact, we can't seem to agree what we should do about others, though we have broad consensuses about our selves. I think when a tradition is focused outward (on improving the whole world) rather than inward (improving the self) this narcissism is less likely to pop up in individuals.

But either way, nothing screams "missing the point" about any religion I can think of more than the sentiment "I am more spiritually enlightened than you!"

Adi wrote:
But either way, nothing screams "missing the point" about any religion I can think of more than the sentiment "I am more spiritually enlightened than you!"

Yesss this is soo what i was trying to get across thank you :laugh:

I don’t know when it happened or how, but I have noticed a lot of “me” in the world today. Me being important, me making a difference, me getting what I think I deserve, me meditating… it goes on and on. Keep in mind, I am not complaining, just stating what I have noticed.

When I was younger, it feels like the focus, and this may not be true for everyone and maybe only “me,” but the focus was on what you can do to help others. This was very much reinforced in the Boy Scouts. Then, in the youth at the church I attended it was the same way. I actually wrote a post in my journal describing a change I realized in myself… I grew up doing what was right, what I was supposed to do because it was right and it was what I was supposed to do. Now, I do it because I want to. There is a huge difference in that.

So what is doing what is right? Well, it’s following that little voice inside of you no matter how hard it seems; following your heart; letting yourself do for others without thought of reward or recognition. I can almost feel people asking, “What in the world does this have to do with spiritual narcissm?” Ego.

As we began to study in the IP, we see that ego plays a huge part in our thinking and decision making. As long as we continue to feed it, it will only grow and become more of a monster. Feeding the ego is almost like giving drugs to an addict. It’s awesome and they love it and want more of it.

But it is also what centers our lives around the “me” concept. As was mentioned in a couple of posts already, we are only human. And this can be a crutch or a realization. We can lean on it as an excuse as to why we have such a hard time progressing or we can say; hey, here is a place I could spend some attention and maybe look to better myself. The choice is up to the individual though. And pointing out peoples short comings tends to only strengthen their resolve to protect those short comings. It’s a natural phenomenon.

The way I think of it is, we are all imperfect (even me ) and we will all stray from time to time. So I hold no one at fault for that. But I would hope that each of us steps back, from time to time, to take time and realize our own areas of possible improvement. Take the time to ask why it is happening, or what it means and look in to ourselves just a little more. We may, and probably won’t, improve on these things right away. That’s okay… change is hard and takes time. But as long as we’re willing to work at it we are fulfilling why each of us is here.

How I learned to let go of ego, and it still haunts me from time to time, was very similar to what alcoholics might call a moment of clarity. I had an issue and I remembered what my Step-Dad told me, “You are letting yourself get mad.” The first time he said that I thought it was the dumbest thing I ever heard. I thought, “Hell yah! That’s because it’s pissing me off!” Sorry for the language, but that was my actual thought. But, like I said, I have a moment of clarity… I realized that I am letting it make me angry. That realization was like a violent, angry weight just fell off my heart. And from that moment forward I can just think, “why am I letting this bother me?” And it starts to go away as I rationally think about it. Learn from it, and move on. A simple process that is so hard. What does any of that have to do with the topic? Each of us has the ability to let things bother us. But, it’s not about us. It’s about all of us. How we interact and our lives intertwine with each other. Someone made noise while I was meditating. Who cares? Why does it bother you? What is it you feel is causing that anger? Why does that bother you? And more importantly, do things have to go your way for you to be happy?

Just some thoguhts that came to me while I read this thread and the article.

It's hard to avoid when many religions carry hierarchical systems of position and title. Priests, Bishops, Shamans, Knights, Imams, Monks, Pilgrims, Nuns - It keeps going on and on. Those religions which operate on such a structure by their very foundation place chosen individuals on an elevated spiritual status when compared to lay practitioners. Followers of such faiths are instructed to hold their religious officials in reverence, and usually come to understand that they are "beneath" such holy men and women.

It doesn't help that there is a "right and wrong" doctrine held by most faiths, either condemning or applauding different actions and beliefs. The most pious and adherent followers of these doctrines are usually seen to be the most spiritually mature, which doesn't help alleviate the inflated ego's of these particular types.

Progress usually comes very slowly as well, a common problem for communities subject to narcissism whether religious or not. The attitude of "I'm right and I'm in charge, so take a hike and deal with it", has led to countless revolts and uprisings. It has also led to massive breaches of human rights and dignity, with events such as the Spanish inquisition, holocaust, and crusades.

I have to ask, is it even possible to have religion without spiritual narcissism? Having faith and having religion are two very different things, and often go in conflict with each other.

Especially in a community like TOTJO that is based almost entirely on the internet, there is little option or opportunity to engage in religious group activities such as volunteering which benefit local communities and instill a sense of humility.

Conversations are able to be edited and revised due to the nature of computer technology, which distorts the original message a participant may have very well intended - positive or not. This inhibits growth and allows many to hide behind a screen, as the inflection of their intended response cannot be audibly heard, nor is there any real consequence besides a reprimanding message.

When you eliminate the philosophical element however, Jediism really does come down to community service and empowerment - at least the kind which TOTJO seems to promote. The members who take oaths in essence promise to improve themselves in the areas of mental, spiritual, and physical health so that they may be a positive force upon those around them. The goal, at least by my understanding, is not to become enlightened masters but instead to become educated ministers of goodwill.

I of course welcome someone to correct me if I am wrong on that understanding of our intended community mission, however I would be rather saddened as it is one of the things which originally drew me to TOTJO.

I think spiritual narcissism really comes down in the end to being a product of it's environment, and to summarize my post, I think that some environments are more encouraging of it than others.

Kohadre wrote: It's hard to avoid when many religions carry hierarchical systems of position and title. Priests, Bishops, Shamans, Knights, Imams, Monks, Pilgrims, Nuns - It keeps going on and on.

To be fair, many of these titles, especially used in drawing distinctions between "secular" (non-monastic) and "regular" (monastic) lives are important and have their uses. But hierarchies do not always function as they might appear. In the church I belong to, the people are at the top. Beneath the people are bishops — the bishops answer to the people. Our governing structure functions as a representative democracy with a bicameral legislature (modelled somewhat on the early U.S. Congress - this is not an accident.) We elect our bishops.

Beneath the bishops are priests. Beneath the priests are deacons. etc. But make no mistakes: the bishops serve the people and answer to them. They are not high and mighty officials with greater holiness than someone else. They just occupy a higher position of service. The title they possess *usually* befits the length, depth and dedication of that service. I tend to be distrustful of hierarchies too, but I think they can function well if set up properly.

Finally, it's worth noting something my priest once told me: "I am not a better person than you." The implication was that simply having "Rev." before her name for over 20 years did not magically make her better than me, or anyone else. We are all simply human beings at the end of the day, and need to remember that always, no matter how long or intense our spiritual journey is, or how much prestige or enlightenment we think it has given us. Your journey is not better or worse than my journey.

Stratification can serve progress, to give traction in orientating ones experiences and focus into a larger set of practises... and be most easily expressed or translated in hierarchical terms. It is easy to view them derogatory but IMO it's not the intended meaning sometimes.

I like the 'therapeutic' approach, because while it divides us into component systems, it does allow a way to view things in terms which limit the association to some 'separate' self to be 'judged'... instead various states of imbalance within a undefined self or otherwise - because if being opinionated, then it seems more effective to do so with intention of assisting rather then judging.

Such that stepping on his toe is more an unexpected load on habitual reaction then some failure of a specific practice - unless the practice was 'someone is going to step on your toe, make sure you react with compassion' or 'something negative will happen, make sure you respond with compassion'.

His reaction will probably disappoint him, but only because it is related, but to assert it as a failure might not be appropriate simply because he might have made important progress in responding like that (instead of perhaps jumping up and smashing him in the face automatically), and to call it narcissistic seems slightly absurd unless it was more intimately related to the practice IMO.

It's a good topic though, its an interesting thing to keep an eye out - to see someone with progress rest on their laurels when the path itself is meant to be about continued progress.

edit... unless a therapeutic approach is seen as narcissistic, certainly some Doctor's I've met seem to have acquired it!?

There are times during our life's journey that we need to attend to the self.
Nurse the broken heart.
Soothe the wounds of disparagement.

In my interpretation of Jediism, we eventually realize that the self is an illusion and narcissism a waste of time.

Eventually, one becomes strong enough to leave all that behind and attend to the needs of others.

It seems to be the case that folks end up on our Temple's doorstep with needs regarding the self.
For those who can, the ego is left at the door and we attend the wounds we can.