"...we are all responsible not only for ourselves but the entire society..."

This came out of the IP discussion held in chat today. As it is was not directly related to the IP I post the discussion here for others' thoughts. I have removed any conversation not directly related to Vusuki's question and colour coded respondents so that it is easier to read.

(22:12:47) Vusuki: Who else had trouble facing the idea (of Krishnamurti) that we are all responsible not only for ourselves but the entire society of which we are a part of?
(22:13:09) Vusuki: I haven't finished the book- freedom from the known but I found that deeply unsettling
(22:14:00) Gisteron: i have no trouble facing that idea, vusuki, i just find it preposterous, personally. but seeing how he asserts it on no grounds, i need no grounds to dismiss it either.
(22:14:30) Edan: I haven't read that book... we are responsible for what we do within society.. though I am not sure we are all responsible for what society is.. if that makes sense..
(22:15:11) Connor_L.: We are responsible for our contribution.
(22:15:25) Edan: Exactly...must better put
(22:15:27) Connor_L.: So, how we react, and what we do in response to society directly shapes it.
(22:17:17) Alan: I like this idea better in Jean-Paul Sartre's essay, "Existentialism is Humanism". When you choose you choose for every person. Because if you value it enough to choose it then it is a value you would want for everyone.
(22:18:15) Vusuki: Is that also the idea of the precepts of the Categorical Imperative?
(22:18:37) Vusuki: Act in such a way that your maxim could be a universal law?
(22:19:21) Vusuki: (and never treat a person as a means to an end but always as an end and means in itself)
(22:19:37) Vusuki: (and act in accordance with a law you give yourself)
(22:19:49) Alan: Similar. But for the Categorical Imperative, the reason is not my freedom as in Sartre but because everyone shares the same divinely given human reason.
(22:21:20) Gisteron: sounds like an arbitrary distinction to me... i may choose a thing knowing full well it's not a choice everybody would or should make. likewise i can refuse a choice with no rimorse knowing that generally speaking it would've been a better way to go.
(22:23:06) Gisteron: likewise, i wouldn't want the maxim to evaluate maxims by the categorical imperative to be a universal law, therefore following that imperative i would have to reject that imperative making the construct, at least superficially, self-defeating.

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=ySEJxwM7Jh0


Responsibility (or lack thereof) is the result of dualistic thinking. In Freedom from the Known I think JK is playing with us a little when he says we are responsible. It's actually worse than that . . . We are not responsible for the violence and hated - we ARE the violence and hatred. We are also the love and compassion. We cannot only feel intimately connected with the 'good' in the world - we are also intimately connected with the 'bad'.

It's late here but it's the start of an answer at least

I think the assumption that might occur is that it is the burden of responsibility that he means, but instead reckon its meant to be rather a measure of it only. As such it would be variable, and the most importance/relevance being for many that the relationship is even in existence. Mindfulness to this relationship can take many forms but some might work better then others, and abuse of becoming attached to 'participation' can itself be its own problem. I think his audience is mostly the self centered egoist because he was bought up in such an artificial environment of intense spiritual training that his worldview made many other people's behaviour look terribly self centered, IMO.

In my studying I found I am responsible for 100% of my own decisions. I have chosen to take on that responsibility. That takes up a lot of one's time. I can help but as one who is fully accountable I can say I am not a countable for others and their decisions. I can influence, guide warn council and encourage but in the end the choice is the individuals I think. My actions are at times ready to move either way or some times multiple due to the " others" in the mix of life. Some.may not want that choice of responsibility, some may.

I think maybe if everyone actually did take responsibility for themselves, taking responsibility for the entire society would not need to be imagined.

Too many people expect society to be responsible for them, you see it in politics right now with the promises of free this, free that, like free healthcare or free college will actually be by definition free. On the other side you've got people who are hardcore responsibility types and end up thinking they can take responsibility for others only to realize (or not) either they themselves aren't in a position to decide what's right for everyone else or that people who cannot take care of themselves truly will never be satisifed with what others provide to them.

The idea that we as individuals are responsible for the entire society can be positive or negative. Some might like that idea and go out and do good deeds to solve problems and promote harmony. Others might find it too big of a burden or seek solutions to solving society's problems in the fashion of a tyrant in hopes of establishing a utopia. I think though that whether or not we like it, we are. You can choose to ignore things, be part of the group thinking herds, follow your political figures, let other people do and take care of things, when we should all at least be participating in our immediate environment and societies while communicating with the rest of the world.

If I think how I might be responsible for the entire society, I must look at the various levels of the society I'm in.

My individual setting is me, my friends, my dogs, my girlfriend. Most of my friends and I all work together, we share houses, pitch in together for food and various supplies, etc. The biggest problems pretty much arise from the difficulty of determining when a situation is based in our friendship or business which is essentially a lack of communication. They occur mostly when dealing with the times of who needs to get what done with work, or settling who paid for this or who owes for that. I've seen such a lack of communication that people will just assume the worst with people, 'this person is greedy and wants to control the rest' or 'this person is lazy and doesn't deserve this or that'. The exact same things I see out in the higher levels of society. Thankfully I have a girlfriend in Russia that I get to go to and be away from all the drama when it's there which is what I'm doing now because I'm the one who is owed a lot of money this time and sees the greed and laziness in various people that have held me back from doing what I need to do. I'm not very close to my family as they have always been a source of petty drama that I'm just not interested in, I don't like to fight and nitpick with everyone around me about trivial things.

My town or county has debt, crime, and environmental issues. Well I usually support my local stores when buying clothes, tools and other gear even if it's a little more expensive than the internet. The grocery store I go to is a co-op where the customers are the owners and there is governmental structure to it anyone can be a part of, most of the produce is local and there are many other products that are locally sourced and if not are still pretty close. All of the sales tax and spending my money in my community helps with the debt issue I'd like to think. As for crime, well the crime is mostly related to drug use such as meth and there is a large population of vagrants that feed of the community in a parasitical way. These are not homeless people who are down on their luck they are people who choose that lifestyle and do drugs, steal and trash the beaches, parks and streets. There isn't much I can do about that and neither can local law enforcement due to lack of resources so I operate my day to day life in a strategic and defense manner while being fully prepared to go on the offensive if need be. Then for environmental issues when I work I keep my jobsite clean and take with me what I bring in and dispose of garbage responsibly. I am conscious of what I choose to use for certain jobs as it relates to the environment in regards to toxicity and general pollution. A big issue for us is water use right now and we have a lot of unregulated marijuana cultivation here which is basically the industry that keeps the community thriving, but the county has finally implemented policies to begin regulation via permiting processes, fixing properties, etc. Other industries are part of the problem as well, and while I try to do my part I like to stay aware of what's going on in my locale politically so if I feel the desire or need I can participate in the process.

On a state level, well I live in rural northern California and California is almost like it's own country. Sacramento and the south is pretty much corrupt, drowning itself in debt, destroying it's own environment and leeching what it needs from the north. A Hollywood, yuppy liberal wasteland - I am totally apathetic about statewide issues to the point of considering moving. I guess I could couple my involvement with the national society in the same way. I think the idea of America was great, a consitutional republic by which states regulated themselves and based on their environment, the cultures and interests of the people who came and live there would be able to look after their own interests. But this idea or dream is no longer real as the federal government whose sole purpose was to just have a military and direct the communication between states has basically usurped state's rights and acts on it's own accord serving it's own private, corporate, banking interests. We've had a mutated form of fascism for awhile and those in the federal government decided to fulfill nefarious hidden agendas under the guise of policing the world. Now after generations of indocrincation and watering down of our culture and traditions through cultural marxism we're transitioning into a democractic socialist (corporate socialism in reality as the 1% has always wanted someone like Bernie) system where the system will decide who gets what healthcare, education, jobs and take even more from the individual and states as an endgame for the establishment to transition into a more open global governmental system with no sovereign nations justifying itself using the problems of poverty, terrorism, and various crisis it created. I don't think this is being pessimistic either, it's easy to see and learn about when you read the writings and see the actions of the big political businessmen. Europe is further ahead in this game and is currently undergoing a huge transition as we all know, Africa and the Middle East serve as global 'sub-regions' for resources and Asia will manufature and produce everything in this big business model.

While in some ways I can understand why it's all being done semi-secretly (it's not because you can read Agenda 21 and all the trade deals, and again read it from the horse's mouth) and in a way that creates order of it's own chaos. It's all pretty brilliant but I think it has happened because nobody wanted to take responsibility for the entire society or even themselves. Just like those who cracked the first nut or harnessed fire, they saw the opportunity to do this to further their own survival to mainain their status and that of their offspring. It's not me who is making this an us verse them thing either, they are the ones who decided to go against everyone else and take advantage of situations for their own benefit. But the problem is rooted in the invidual's psychology that is based on fear of it's own freedom and what people think that results in people who take control of that fear that exists on a collective level.

I think a lot of people are waking up and becoming aware of the need to take responsibility for themselves, and that of the entire society. They'll have to because jobs aren't being created, healthcare and education will always be expensive, and the cost of living will rise while standards fall. I've even read some occult stuff where the idea behind all of this chaos was to awaken a conscious humanity and you see all of this stuff in the entertainment. So while I'm lethargic on a state and national level, I think on a global or spiritual level there is a great opportunity for everyone to be involved somehow and we may be responsible stewards of the earth and each other as we evolve and futher our eventual travels into and perhaps colonization of other parts of the universe. It's a great time to take action and do what you can yourself, doing it for those who are longer with us, those who can't, those who won't and those who will be here after we're gone.

While the title of this post is absolutely true, we must acknowledge that a great many things have come before our time. I cannot accept responsibility for slavery, but I can accept responsibility to know about it and stamp it out. So just take things in context and take responsibility for the things you can and learn from the things of the past. I would highly recommend a great many PBS documentaries that teach a lot about everything that has happened since video was invented.

https://youtu.be/KKD9anjgcCI?t=5m28s

Skip to 5:28 for the segment containing what I would really like to draw your attention to.

This has been the predominant topic of conversation between Josh and me this morning ...

"I -Thou" relationships become "I - it" when one 'thinks one understands'. Just be 'understanding'. We never 'understand' entirely ... not enough to assign blame. Thus, the incomprehension (what we cannot 'understand', that which comes from an artificial sense of "meaning") is that from which we assign Guilt, Shame and the very basis of Violence.

Ponder it ....

All of the past, present and future situations that we, as a race, create for ourselves...have these not all arisen from the human condition to which we are all subjected?

External causes and conditions play a pivotal role in shaping us and our decisions - we might think that we are doing 'good' things, but if exposed to exactly the same causes and conditions as someone doing 'bad' things is there not a chance that we would be doing the same as them?

Resistant as we generally are to the notion, much of the position that we each find ourselves in could be considered to be a result of luck - luck of the draw - our upbringing, the situations we have been exposed to, the external things that have affected us. Even those good choices that we make that we believe are a sign of our consciously writing our own destinies - how can we know with any degree of certainty that we would have made those same choices had the preceeding events of our life been different?

We all have within us the potential to do good and bad things, selfless and selfish things, thoughtful and thoughtless things...that is an inescapable part of being human.

Our actions contribute to the external conditions that influence others - take the Temple, for example - the attitude of the individuals here makes up the collective positive atmosphere that we all so enjoy. Over time here, people learn to engage respectfully and courteously and to enjoy their discourse rather than to experience it in an aggressively combative and/or defensive frame of mind, because that is what they see other individuals doing and that is consequently the overall atmosphere or aura of the Temple. Similarly, when one person becomes aggressive in a particular discussion, how many times have we seen others react to this with similar aggression, and the behaviour and tone of the whole conversation rapidly descends into negativity? The behaviour of individuals affects the behaviour of the collective...(which isn't to say that individuals aren't responsible for their own actions, but that sometimes our conditioning is very hard to transcend and, as fallible human beings, we accept that we wont all succeed all of the time).

The effect (that we are having on others) doesn't always have to be intentional or conscious either - we never know how our actions are being observed and interpreted, and contributing to someone else's interpretation of the world.

So there is responsibility in recognizing that we are always an external condition in the life of others - what we do affects them, whether we like it or not. And what they do affects others, and what those others do affect yet more others...

The idea that 'one person can change the world' can sometimes seem a ludicrous one - it is often understood to mean that one person will single-handedly change the world, and for the most part this probably is unrealistic. Why? Because we are not islands...we exist as part of a collective humanity. If we reword it as 'collectively, each person can change the world' - might there be some truth in this? :dry:

If we all feel responsible for 3 people than we have at least one person who feels responsible for us , thus making it impossible to hurt eachother without hurting oneself

V-Tog wrote: All of the past, present and future situations that we, as a race, create for ourselves...have these not all arisen from the human condition to which we are all subjected?

Resistant as we generally are to the notion, much of the position that we each find ourselves in could be considered to be a result of luck - luck of the draw - our upbringing, the situations we have been exposed to, the external things that have affected us. Our actions contribute to the external conditions that influence others - take the Temple, for example - the attitude of the individuals here makes up the collective positive atmosphere that we all so enjoy.

So there is responsibility in recognizing that we are always an external condition in the life of others - what we do affects them, whether we like it or not. And what they do affects others, and what those others do affect yet more others...

The idea that 'one person can change the world' can sometimes seem a ludicrous one - it is often understood to mean that one person will single-handedly change the world, and for the most part this probably is unrealistic. Why? Because we are not islands...we exist as part of a collective humanity.

Mmm.. what if one person is the universal word for all persons working together as one? What if our actions not only contribute to the external conditions of other people, but also to ourselves? Would I be a weird if I call this external contribution to others a influence and to myself luck? I find this 'luck' to be found in all contribution? Luck is nothing more than a uncontrollable favorable situation. So should we all consider ourselves lucky? I think we could.. But most people only favor the situations that they do not face every day as luck. Why is that? Is it because we stopped realising the every day little things because we began to see them as normal?

~ Aqua