Is truth in the eye of the beholder or an attachment that does not exist?

I happen to watch Starwars during the holiday (The original and prequels... Not 7 still need to see it) but, as I watched I noticed in episode 6 after Yoda had passed and Luke is about to take off Obi Wan appears. Luke is torn because I think that he felt betrayed by his mentor and lied to about who his father was or his fate. Now, Obi Wan's response to him I felt was an excellent answer to Luke he said, "Many truths we cling to are depend in our own point of view."

That stuck with me as I watched the rest of the movie. I thought to myself, "Truth hmm...could it be that truth is merely in the eye of the beholder? Could it be only the truth because someone believed it was the truth? Ex: World religions and their respectable deities, A man divorced his wife because he believes she is cheating on her when along its not true? But, yet he believes its the truth? It, Hitler when he killed all the Jewish people in the holocaust in his mind what he was doing was truth? Now, maybe that's unfair to say or even a little unusable if think but, what if truth was merely a myth, an illusion that we create in our minds that keeps us safe mentally? Christianity, Roman Catholism during the crusades promised Heaven and eternal life to Knights we were willing to listen to the Pope's commands, Islam, Muslims well Jihadist are taught if you die in the name of Allah you will be given virgin women when you die in the name of Allah and complete paradise. My response to that and hope this doesn't offend anyone but, isn't that an illusion? I mean who could promise any of that? They've never been there? Or that matter if it exists at all. I know that is faith and they're right to be and religion isn't the only "truths" I feel I could discuss here but, its arguably the biggest other than politics which is another can if worms. I might get in trouble with some even discussing other religions...

But, Obi Wan went further to say that "he cease to be Anakin Skywalker and became Darth Vader. He is more machine now than man twisted and Evil. The Good man your father was had been destroyed." However, now that was Obi Wan opinion but, later as it almost seemed hopeless and Vader was going to allow the Emporer to kill Luke for not turning Vader even shocks the Emporer by killing him and sacrificing himself to save his son.

Now, we got two truths here one we got Obi Wans which, us true the way he explained it. Got back to Episode 3 where Anakin is burned up by the lava sea it was as he was burned away the part of him Anakin Skywalker then he is put in a suit and becomes no longer Anakin as we know him but Darth Vader. But, we also got Luke's view point, "I cannot kill my father, Father I sense the good in you, I sense the conflict in you let go if your hate I don't believe you'll destory me." Vader, is ultimately redeemed in the love, and self sacrificing of himself for his son and stands proudly next to Obi Wan and Yoda in the end.

Finally, is Obi Wan right? Or, Luke? Are they both? As said I could debate both sides. But, the point being is truth merely a person's own point of view? Or, is there more to truth? Obviously, white lies are not truth or dishonesty but, I am talking about truth, faith, the very fabics of our human and Spiritual Nature.

I don't think the concept of truth represents any absolute nature of something, and as you mention there are things we just do not have the capability to know and assert knowledge of. So for me truth is rather accuracy within some context, hence the statement 'from a certain point of view'.

I sort of tried to explain my opinion in my round about way in your earlier thread at;
https://www.templeofthejediorder.org/forum/Jediism/112608-truth#214540

Things are always changing, and we'd have to trim information to some package of relevance. So the trick is having a mutual understanding of the context, and information being shared to those parameters - rather then some expectation of 'complete' accuracy without a frame of reference.

So when someone asserts accuracy to something which cannot be known, its probably a statement of belief rather then truth. The thing is belief is using something as a truth, and a particular type of belief is delusion - which is when the belief is contradicted by evidence (or consensus!?). So a belief is a truth from the point of view of not questioning its validity - an assumed truth. When it boils down to it the only thing's which we know are true are the things which we experience and understand to the extent beyond which it occurs - which is not very much. Poor Luke did not have enough information to understand the most concise truth about the familial relationship with Darth Vader... and I tend to assume the underlying fictional 'Force' was the main reason why Obi-Wan felt he could not risk Luke's welfare by exposing him to things he could not handle at the time. As guardians of that power by being practitioners of it, it would seem thy assumed responsibility for access control to it, at least to some extent, and maybe to what they perceive was the greater good for the recipient - that concept being maybe the aforementioned frame of reference Obi-Wan assumed Luke understood by hanging out with an old desert Sage with a box of lightsabers and magic tricks!

Truth is when matters are proven irrefutably with reasoned evidence otherwise it's just subject to perception, which only hold in limited circumstances

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There is an argument to be had as to just how seriously we should take any one given movie quote. Remember, Star Wars is not the book of Deuteronomy. It is not by any means a moral or legal guide. What Obi-Wan said and how he defended himself when confronted by Luke was not part of a greater moral teaching for us, but rather a moment in their respective character arcs. Star Wars is a story first and everything else is second to that. In my opinion Obi-Wan's behaviour is first to be interpreted within the context of said story and his and Luke's respective character arks. The lie in A New Hope was then an easy way to end the discussion and to motivate young Luke to action, to send him on his adventure, if you will. Then Luke found out and Obi-Wan had to wiggle himself out of the awkward and ugly situation and tried to incorporate some sort of moral message into it - one that he arguably hardly believed himself. In the end he was proven wrong about Lord Vader and thus Luke remains the true redeemer of the galaxy seeing how all Jedi he met until then were fundamentally mistaken about the situation and arguably severely corrupted by the war of their generation: Accumulated dirt of the journeys past, if you will, that Luke just didn't have. Had he known the past from early on, he would probably not be the same. Unlike in Return of the Jedi, in Episode IV it was paramount to preserve just this youth and purity of heart of his, for they are what was the titular New Hope.

[/nerdtalk]


As for what truth is or where it lies I think this: Truth is a label we put on propositions to distinguish them from falsehood. The successful models are the strictly logically consistent ones, but all of them are at their root arbitrary. Now that means two-fold: On the one hand everything is not equally true, but on the other hand consistency is the only requirement and within those bounds anything can be set as an anchor point. Now, philosophers may discuss all night what truth is or isn't or how to know it, if at all possible, but in day-to-day application whether something is actually genuinely true in any objective sense is rather irrelevant. Personally, just as with inherent value, I find, as I come to think of it, that the notion of mind-independent truth is itself likewise self-contradictory.

Entropist wrote: ... proven irrefutably with reasoned evidence...

There is no such thing as an irrefutable proof with reasoned evidence. By your standard everything falsifiable is untrue, which is pretty much all of science. More crucially, by your standard, every logical inference that actually can be proven irrefutably is also untrue, because none of them are proven with evidence. So all of logic and math flies out the window also. So the set of truths you are describing is effectively the empty set. Not even one thing is true by your definition.

Gisteron wrote:

Entropist wrote: ... proven irrefutably with reasoned evidence...

There is no such thing as an irrefutable proof with reasoned evidence. By your standard everything falsifiable is untrue, which is pretty much all of science. More crucially, by your standard, every logical inference that actually can be proven irrefutably is also untrue, because none of them are proven with evidence. So all of logic and math flies out the window also. So the set of truths you are describing is effectively the empty set. Not even one thing is true by your definition.

That's only your understanding, if anything there's some sensitivity about ability to prove observed here. Good luck

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Entropist wrote: That's only your understanding...

No. There is, as a matter of fact, nothing you can prove solely with reasoned evidence in a way that would be irrefutable. Conversely, no proof that actually is irrefutable ever needs employ any evidence. Speaking of which, do you have an irrefutable proof with reasoned evidence that this is "only my understanding"? I can prove my statements in question by my standard. Can you prove what you say by yours?

if anything there's some sensitivity about ability to prove observed here.

Sorry, I don't understand what that means. Please, elaborate...

Good luck

Thanks! And to you.

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Entropist wrote: Sent from my ASUS_Z00AD using Tapatalk

You forgot to also take issue with this part, Gisteron.

Truth is relative. Cultures may share what they believe is true and that may be in total conflict with another cultures. I think as humans we have some stuff in common but there will always be differences of opinion. So of course there are no universal absolutes. Find the truth in yourself. Trust your instincts, do what you feel/believe is right. Think peaceful, act peaceful, do your best and everything should be all right. IMHO

No "irrefutable proof with reasoned evidence that", but I don't care.

Facts are objective. Truth is an interpretation of fact, and is subjective.