War - Does the End Justify the Means?

very nicely said, MrBruno, inspires confidence and influence

I fail to see in the grand scheme of things, how it really matters.

We die. All of us will die, without exception.

Does it matter if its from war, disease, age, predators, or any other cause? I mean, I really struggle with this, because even if we eliminate war, we will just kill ourselves out even faster through overpopulation and destruction of our natural environment.

I see war as the only measurable form of population control we currently posses.

I know its harsh and cruel, but I yet to see a more effective solution.

Kohadre wrote: I fail to see in the grand scheme of things, how it really matters.

We die. All of us will die, without exception.

Does it matter if its from war, disease, age, predators, or any other cause? I mean, I really struggle with this, because even if we eliminate war, we will just kill ourselves out even faster through overpopulation and destruction of our natural environment.

I see war as the only measurable form of population control we currently posses.

I know its harsh and cruel, but I yet to see a more effective solution.

I think what is needed is a holistic and therapeutic approach rather then a return to oppression and ignorance, as going backwards to me always seemed like it was unrealistic on many fronts.
Hope + Effort = Remedies
Effort - Hope = Results
Results don't matter in the grand scheme of things because they are driven usually by disconnected and isolated imperatives, but remedies represent the basis for revolutionary change IMO. Mine is probably unrealistic too LOL, but I find it more interesting and rewarding to solve problems by moving attributes/entities forward, then try and force them to cease existing by removing them. I guess I'm being semantic to some extent...... but then things like violence and aggression can be seen as crudish techniques and instead look to function to derive perhaps a biologically inspired 'growth' type of solution to encompass as much as possible. Such that the symbology of the sword might be better considered a scalpel (medical instrument), not so much an axe to cleave - no offense to the lumbersexual folk here
:woohoo:

Kohadre wrote: I fail to see in the grand scheme of things, how it really matters.

We die. All of us will die, without exception.

Does it matter if its from war, disease, age, predators, or any other cause? I mean, I really struggle with this, because even if we eliminate war, we will just kill ourselves out even faster through overpopulation and destruction of our natural environment.

I see war as the only measurable form of population control we currently posses.

I know its harsh and cruel, but I yet to see a more effective solution.

An individual, minority, or a majority failing to see better alternatives that satisfy justice means everyone else suffers prejudice for that failure to see. Self-education is the better initiative for people failing to see. Would their opinions inspire confidence if they are at least the first to follow and demonstrate their own advice at instance?

Just to point out, that the JO believes :

In the sanctity of the human person.

In a society governed by laws grounded in reason and compassion, not in fear or prejudice.

and ultimately,

In the Force, and in the inherent worth of all life within it.

I don't think killing a bunch of people to save the rest would go with the first and third beliefs. If we do not agree with the death penalty, why would we agree with murdering many people, many of whom are innocent and don't deserve death. What kind of society would we live in if we just bombed people that killed others? We would be just like ISIS and the Middle East that feel bombing people is a solution to their answers. It creates fear, fear that we are better because we are stronger. Fear of the other does not make one listen to you out of respect, but out of fear you will retaliate. Take away that fear and they will not listen to you. I am pretty sure that is why the Middle East dislikes the west, namely the US and Britian. They do not fear the bombs. They do not care if we kill innocent people, they already do that. It is out of respect do people listen to someone else, especially for people who believe they are just as good and important as anyone.

We all die, but it does not have to be at the hand of someone else. People have the power and intelligence to not have to kill other people, yet we do. We have the power in ourselves to not solve our problems by killing other people.

I know this is extremely rude, but I feel as if one does not share this, then perhaps they should move on to a spirituality/religion that does not hold these contrary beliefs. There are plenty of forums on the internet to have this discussion, and I would be glad to join the discussion there (I believe in freedom of expression and speech), but it would seem contradictory to call oneself a follower of Jediism and have the belief that we should just kill a whole bunch of people.

Saying this, I think the end does not justify the means. The means are what define our morality.

*Edit
This conversation is good and I like having them. I wanted to make the distinction of why we are here at this particular forum and check our beliefs. We can all learn and perhaps I should not be so quick to dismiss people who have these ideas contrary to Jediism.

Seumic wrote: Just to point out, that the JO believes :

In the sanctity of the human person.

In a society governed by laws grounded in reason and compassion, not in fear or prejudice.

and ultimately,

In the Force, and in the inherent worth of all life within it.

I don't think killing a bunch of people to save the rest would go with the first and third beliefs. If we do not agree with the death penalty, why would we agree with murdering many people, many of whom are innocent and don't deserve death. What kind of society would we live in if we just bombed people that killed others? We would be just like ISIS and the Middle East that feel bombing people is a solution to their answers. It creates fear, fear that we are better because we are stronger. Fear of the other does not make one listen to you out of respect, but out of fear you will retaliate. Take away that fear and they will not listen to you. I am pretty sure that is why the Middle East dislikes the west, namely the US and Britian. They do not fear the bombs. They do not care if we kill innocent people, they already do that. It is out of respect do people listen to someone else, especially for people who believe they are just as good and important as anyone.

We all die, but it does not have to be at the hand of someone else. People have the power and intelligence to not have to kill other people, yet we do. We have the power in ourselves to not solve our problems by killing other people.

Very well reasoned

I know this is extremely rude, but I feel as if one does not share this, then perhaps they should move on to a spirituality/religion that does not hold these contrary beliefs. There are plenty of forums on the internet to have this discussion, and I would be glad to join the discussion there, but it would seem contradictory to call oneself a follower of Jediism and have the belief that we should just kill a whole bunch of people.

Saying this, I think the end does not justify the means. The means are what define our morality.

Diplomacy, education, and understanding are needed in this instance. People should be encouraged to reason and rationalise their thinking to realise themselves.

Being a medieval Reenactor, I have had the opportunity to be engaged in many battles. One eye opener for me put it all into perspective. It was the Crusaders against the Sarisons, before we began our battle, both were instructed to "pray to their God". I was a Templar and went on one knee, sword tip down, my sword presented before me as "our holy man" blessed us in battle. Meanwhile the "other guys were bowing and calling out to "their God".

During this time I actually laughed quietly. Both sides calling out to the heavens, both side believing that they have "God's blessing". The irony was incredible. The many sayings sprang to mind, one of such was "There are many roads to God". In saying that, who am I to say another is wrong.

When I hear that One terrorist Leader has been killed, I cant help but wonder if "better the devil you know" than someone that may cause more destruction as they take his place when he has fallen. I guess, sometimes war is inevitable and until we have a united understanding of one another, we will keep continuing this tradition of self destruction.

Sad indeed.

Walkaboutman wrote: Being a medieval Reenactor, I have had the opportunity to be engaged in many battles.

very effective method to train empathy and sympathy! maybe this can be big tool for impact


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Listen to music and see the video. The message is strong, although I find that the video is not official, but the music is official. Ozzy Osbourne sang this song against the war. His lyrics are always provocative and make us think.

MrBruno wrote: * In war there are no heroes, only survivors;

https://m.youtube.com/watch?v=FSWiMoO8zNE