Integrity or Peace? ie.: Is it ok to lie?

Well, I haven't reached the part where I study everything in Jedi Doctrine, so I might have the answer there. But studying the Creed, we learn we are instruments of Peace, and we have to take Love, Pardon, Faith, Hope, Light and Joy, and that we are the ones to console others.

However, I've always did my best to abide by the Bushido principles, and one of them is Makoto, Integrity.

If the Truth of something is to bring Anger, Injury, Doubt, Despair and Sadness, are we better off withholding it or outright saying a "small lie", or is the Integrity more important than that?

who's to say that withholding information isn't maintaining integrity..

remember the old adage: "if you can't say something nice, don't say anything at all"...

it's a continuous balancing act figuring out when to speak up and when to withhold information...

I think its less about how to act, and more about how to connect. In the same way a balanced understanding of where we are illuminates where we are going?

Is it ok to lie depends on intentions IMO. Is it ok to.. manipulate/misrepresent for selfish intent, no, but how about to provide only partial information from an accepted vantage because its most useful for someone but may not be complete, well yes it would seem ok to me because the practicality.

I mean you can really only interpret someones question in the terms of which they themselves ask it - not how you might interpret it. Its why I prattle on so much in some of my posts, I have no idea of the why or depth behind questions so I just ramble on about how I see it instead and hope something turns out useful
:lol:

Depends on why you felt it was necessary to lie.

Are you using the truth as a weapon?

Sure, it can hurt regardless, but you have to ultimately decide if its something they need to here.

Are you doing if out of cowardice?

Spare there feelings?

Spare yourself an uncomfortable, but perhaps needed situation?

Or, is is really inconsequential?

Take this place for example, I dont lie, but I dont always say what I would like.

Almost exclusively to spare myself a banning, but also, because well, my culture is not that of the Jedi, and so i try to respect, as much as I can without not being true to myself, this culture and curb what would be truthful, but highly damaging to this culture. Certainly to the individuals receiving it.

So, if I feel I cannot express myself openly and honestly without too much harm, I stop responding.

In my culture, the truth is very much a weapon, one which you get adept not only at using, but receiving, at first its a club, in the novices hands, in the adepts, a sword, and in the masters, a brush.

It is thus no friendship, with as the one wants not hear truth the other then be willing to lie. - M. T. Cicero

Personally, I find integrity paramount. All harm truth can do is trumped by the harm an uncovered lie would in its stead, and that is not even touching upon how lying to others is often also lying to oneself. No relationship between people is better for standing on a lie than it would be for standing on none.
Now, on the other hand, integrity and truthfulness are not the same thing. If you make it your principle to speak the truth, betraying that principle when convenience calls for it is of course sanding away at that principle. Betraying yourself, if you will, your values, your very own dignity, as an opportunity presents itself, now that I call dishonour. Sacrificing your highest principles on an altar of inferior ones, that is dishonour. To lie need not necessarily be a taboo in your book, for you get to pick yourself whence your honour stems from and whence it wouldn't.

On a side note, if I may so arrogantly share some advice, to again quote the late Hitchens, "don't swallow your moral code in tablet form". The doctrine doesn't get to inform you about what you must or must not believe nor does the Creed get to declare how you must or must not act. Be autonomous and responsible on your own rather than a mere instrument, as St. Francis' prayer would call you to be. "Take the risk of thinking for yourself; much more happiness, truth, beauty and wisdom will come to you that way."

Lying is not an option. The code of the knights says "His word speaks only truth", there is no trust where there lie. However, there are ways to tell the truth and deal with them that are more lenient than others.

Eg.) I do not like you Almeida (only example ), look at your face already makes me sick. OK, let's not judge myself. US, I must ask myself, "why I feel that with the Almeida", depending on the response, I can go work this feeling can sometimes be something you did to me. If I do not say how you will improve? Or it may be in my head, then you know best or other aspects of you help me override this feeling. Whether or not struggling or not, our minds are conditioned to make judgments, for countless reasons, futility, security, ignorance; whether it is something that should be worked on.
Of course you will not tell me "you make me sick," but if it's something you've done I'll tell you, the kindest way; if something of mine I would not tell you, unless you ask.

Let me give you an example of what I mean.

I live with my wife and cousin. Sometimes he doesn't do something he was supposed to, like doing the dishes. When I can, I go there and do it myself. If my wife asks, I can say that it was me, and make her angry at him, or i can say it was him, and preserve peace, while I can tell him in the next day that I covered up for him, and ask him to avoid forgetting again.

I don't see harm on it, and, unless he comes to her and say he didn't do it, nobody will ever know.

Am I wrong?

It all depends on the relationships, and I'd defer to being fully truthful unless the matter was trivial enough to try and manage, like your example perhaps.

In that example the worst I'd go would be to cycle through 4 phases;
1. I'd probably cover for him once or twice, give him a reminder it was only that time, then if it keeps happening he is committing to his fate by deliberate avoidance of his duties. This gives you two guys a chance to sort it out in private, and for your to check for any unknown factors which might be leading him to avoid his work. But then if still not doing it...

2. I'd switch it to confide in the wife you did do it, but that your trying to get him to do it by pretending to cover for him. This is so she plays along as if she does not know, as an interim stage so he might be able to sense the shift without it being made explicit. Since family is delicate often I think there is grounds to smooth things like this a bit so long as its trivial and not dragged out over a long time. This allows it to be kept in your hands a little longer, and makes you look like your in charge of the situation and trying to sort it out.

3. Finally, if he still doesn't do it.. then you tell him you cant cover anymore as you think the wife is suspicious. If that doesn't make him step up..

4. Then you surrender your solo effort and say to your wife it appears he is deliberately avoiding the work and not doing what he agreed. The next step then might be for you both to do what you were going to do about it in a unified manner.

I'm assuming the higher priority relationship is with the wife, better perhaps to have an angry cousin then an angry wife!? :blush:

So you can see stuff in that which could be called lies, in the first to the wife, in the second to the cousin. But it's not manipulation for selfish reasons, it's because your trying to address a failure of someone to do what they said they would in such a way to minimize the impact of that persons abuse of the agreed conditions. I'd call the first one a white lie, and the second one a more genuine lie but given its applied to the cause of the problem 'and' is designed again to protect him a bit longer from being faced with the combined husband and wife double team - it's being done for his interests, and since its a sort of trivial matter but one which could be the fuel to further fires.

The more serious something is, the less comfortable I am with taking the responsibility of managing information flow unless everyone has agreed that I am in charge of information flow. Once authority and responsibility has been established its not about making a lie, but 'management', and if they want to know more then they'd need to specifically ask

personally, id be willing to cover for him in terms of just doing the dishes, but i would explain to him that its not cool and also explain to him that if my wife asks me about it, there is no way i would lie to her to cover up his lack of responsibility

although i like Adders aporoach too

i personally tend to be really particular on lies - my mind says "why tell a small lie to someone really close?" like the issue is not important enough to put the seed of doubt in their mind - id much rather let the truth stand on its own- and then with big issues definitely no lie - to be in a relationship that you can count on is worth paying the price of being honest

I think if in doubt default to honesty and integrity. At least in make you reliable and predictable and you can always be proud of your values and of course that will make life tough for you. But isn't the right thing to do always the hard road? That's why it's less traveled.