why i dont like joseph campbell

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8 years 5 months ago - 8 years 5 months ago #209972 by OB1Shinobi
Found this article yesterday and naturally thought "i wonder what the temple would say?"

heres a link if you want to read it from the source and see the pictures

http://roguepriest.net/2011/07/04/why-i-dont-like-joseph-campbell/

heres the article itself - its not very long, just a few minutes to read

Warning: Spoiler!

People are complicated.
Last edit: 8 years 5 months ago by OB1Shinobi.
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8 years 5 months ago #209999 by
Replied by on topic why i dont like joseph campbell
Very interesting. I do enjoy that the author was never rude or seemed to be putting down Campbell at all. He managed to disagree with him but politely. That's important to me.

I can't help but feel though that the author is focusing on too narrow a definition of Hero. To him you can't be a hero unless you're a firefighter or a police officer or wear spandex and fly around New York. Those accountants may just save people from utter financial despair which could have caused them to commit suicide. We don't know. That father of three, who want's to bet that there are three people to whom he is a true and absolute hero. I just think it's a little narrow minded to say that they aren't heroes.

It just sounds like the author is upset because people are talking about it that don't live up to his standards. A lot of bad things happen when we impose our standards on other people.

Near the middle he was talking about Campbell ignoring the important parts of the myths, the differences. Well important is subjective. To Campbell the similarities were far more interesting because these cultures had no contact. For all of these people who had no contact to come up with so many similar stories is really really cool and that's what Campbell wanted to talk about. The world spends enough time focusing on people's differences. What Campbell wanted people to realize was that in spite of those differences we aren't actually all that different. That's where the monomyth came from.

I do get his frustration with it being applied to everything though. It's like when people say that all movies are exactly the same and then give the vaguest outline possible so that literally everything fits. Well of course every movie fits into "There's a person, there's a problem, person tries to overcome problem, may or may not succeed." That's not the point. Campbell was a bit more specific than that.

Like I said, interesting read. Thanks for posting. I always enjoy reading something that challenges my point of view without being rude about it.

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8 years 5 months ago - 8 years 5 months ago #210004 by
Replied by on topic why i dont like joseph campbell

The monomyth he tells resonates strongly with Western audiences because it was written by a Westerner.
If any of this seems too nitpicky or academic, let me put it this way:

In the 1940s a white American man wrote about the sacred myths of other cultures. He decided he knew what they meant better than those cultures themselves did.

The problem with this should be self-evident.


Wow. That's quite silly.

So instead we should reject one of the most significant cultural studies up to that point in pre-civil-rights history, indeed, one which embodies a message of unity, of the similarity and fraternity of all peoples couched within a celebration of their diverse cultural traditions, because of the race of the author?

The problem with that should be equally self-evident.
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8 years 5 months ago #210005 by Adder
There is a story about the aerobatic pilot who wanted to be the lowest flying stunt pilot ever, well he was - the moment before he smashed into the ground. My personal thoughts are in the same way the article seems to allude that the best 'hero' might be the one that gives it all and perhaps even dies being heroic!! Such sacrifice could be seen as the most heroic, but that is not a particularly useful path to me, to go out looking to be seen as the most heroic - and even in quantitative terms of heroism, decades of smaller acts might be a larger total then one big sacrificial act.

So the thing to consider might be its the temporal frame of reference being used to understand the effort to generate heroism. I think the concept of being a hero needs to be understood in terms of spiritual development, as in ones outlook to life as an ongoing thing - not some symbolic heroic gesture or idealized fantasy of heroic service. This way the individual can work towards maximising the realistic potential going forward as integral to character.

Sure, if you can do a career in emergency services like a firie, ambo, military or police then you'll get more heroic action, but those things come with the downsides of the sacrifice implicit with acts of heroism also and some people just are unable for various reasons to walk that path. To require a certain level of others or oneself to justify the commitment would seem a bit sectarian to me.

I've always just view J. Campbell as an academic (researcher & messenger) not a role model (teacher), so his literary focus seemed entirely acceptable to me. Such that his efforts are to serve as guidance for us to dive in and take want we want or need ourselves, rather then just following someone instructions. Looking for similarities in new content to know content is one fun way to approach new material and build up a viewpoint - the trick is, as the author pointed out, to be mindful of our ignorance and bias when approaching new content and not to rush to exert our embryonic view of the new, as the actual view or experience of being that new thing.

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8 years 5 months ago #210039 by Loudzoo
Thanks for posting OB1. I was just chatting with a certain someone about this, and he said:

"Campbell is like an aubergine. All by itself it's colourful, pretty . . . easy to digest, but, one needs to prepare it with other ingredients to make it tasty: Eliade, Durand, Krishnamurti - and other philosophies and ethnographies. It also takes practice (as with cooking) to spot myth in everyday life."

When the author of the blog states that his problem with Campbell is that "I want to be an actual hero" it becomes clear he's missed the point . . .

Also makes me think that such 'cooking instructions' might be helpful for those starting the IP - Campbell might not taste as good the first time you 'cook' it, as it does later on . . .

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8 years 5 months ago #210043 by
Replied by on topic why i dont like joseph campbell
I believe Campbell chose the word 'Hero' because it is exciting and it intrigues one to explore the 'Hero's Journey'. It invokes the image of mythological characters like Hercules and Lancelot, and so makes the discussion more exciting. True, nobody wants to sit around and talk about accountants, but it seems like Mr. Jacob is setting the 'hero' bar pretty high.

In my understanding of Campbell's work it often makes more sense to substitute 'Hero' with 'Protagonist'. Not all mythological heroes acted 'heroically'. Some relied on cunning or a quick wit. Some also did downright evil stuff only to be redeemed in the end. And not all of them slayed dragons or rescued damsels. You do not have to be Captain America to be a protagonist. When you consider the 'Hero's Journey' this way, it becomes a journey that we can all take. Just because there have yet to be any Herculean tasks forced upon me, that doesn't mean that my experience of life is any more or less authentic and important. The point is, we have more in common with each other than we have differences. Any of us can be Hercules, Ghandi, Neo... or an accountant.

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8 years 5 months ago #210048 by Tellahane

Adder wrote: Sure, if you can do a career in emergency services like a firie, ambo, military or police then you'll get more heroic action, but those things come with the downsides of the sacrifice implicit with acts of heroism also and some people just are unable for various reasons to walk that path. To require a certain level of others or oneself to justify the commitment would seem a bit sectarian to me.


As someone who volunteers for the emergency services point of view, I can agree to this. Sure doing this is amazing thing to do, but it takes a toll, and it's not for everyone, the type of situations that you can come across in and deal with is extensive and in some cases mind numbing, and its really only for a select few of people. In the end your making a serious life altering impact on someone saving their life. You can still have that same impact providing canned food to someone who hasn't eaten in a week. There are many ways to do it, just because your not in a career of doing it doesn't mean that's the only way.
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8 years 5 months ago #210078 by
Replied by on topic why i dont like joseph campbell
Nice find OB1. I'm absolutely no expert on JC and I'm still very much learning. That said I'm going to take the unpopular stance and say that I currently agree with a lot of what she said. I still see a lot of value in JC's work though. It is very interesting stuff.

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8 years 5 months ago #210096 by
Replied by on topic why i dont like joseph campbell
I agree with some parts of that article and disagree with others.

What I disagree with is that "there is no call to adventure". Maybe not in the form that many myths take, but I definitely feel that my life has been an adventure ever since I met my master Mitth. That adventure, however, is mostly internal.

I agree with most of the rest of that article. Campbell's experience is limited to stories, and not so much the literal path that is life. I've read his books, listened to his speeches, and I love the guy. He's fascinating. But not much of what he taught is applicable.

Sorry TOTJO :unsure:

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8 years 5 months ago #210147 by Carlos.Martinez3
Would you have feelings for a key? Would you hate the key if it lead to some one or something hateful? Would you praise the key for unlocking treasure? Most of the time we do not. There are those who deserve recognition. I place Mr. Campbell there in that place of he is the key, one of many who has opened the eyes of many. One man will never have all the truth, but I am thankful to have been a student of his teachings. Thru him and his different way of seeing things I have seen the similarities in culture from a greater and broader stand point. He singly did not teach me what I have learned but he certainly sparked it lol

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