is ISIS evil?

i want to express that for myself and my own view i am not here advocating any particular type of response at this time

from what ive read about them, they seem to want to conquer everything they can and impose their own, extremely conservative (the word "midieval" has been used) interpretation of sharia law

they dont just chop of the heads of their declared enemies, but in fact use beheading and terror even against other muslims as their means of enforcing their beliefs

from what ive read they are extremely brutal even to those they claim to be fighting for

i dont know how credible anything is anymore to be perfectly honest, but ive also read that they plan on literally taking over much of the world, including parts of europe, within the next five years

i would say that rehabilitation only works if the person is willing to change their behavior

i haveno problem negotiating with people who will actually negotiate and be reasonable

also i am quite forgiving, but if a person is going to continue their campaign of brutality, what is forgiveness?

im not about punishing the guilty as much as i am about protecting the innocent

Ummm, yes, from I've read some of their propaganda, but its a bit too sick in the head for me to pay continued attention too. They use maximum violence and available force to convert, enslave or kill, and they exert delusional belief into violent action to their political purposes - they are an insane death cult IMO. And I don't think I'm being too harsh in saying that.

Which is sort of fitting in the description of delusional belief when it impacts others so negatively. The difference between sanity and insanity in practical terms is the impact it has on others (believe it or not, it goes to how well someone can handle their situation and integrate into society)... so I have no problem calling their method as being an example of insanity.

At this point in time, its pretty clear to me they are actually deliberately trying to be 'evil' and calling it something else. It's what makes them different and gives their minions some whisper of hope. While they are not the first, or even alone in using a particular interpretation of Islam to define what is 'right' and what is 'wrong'... they are unique in that they have decided to justify all action based on those resultant definitions and rally to it without restraint; and they would probably see the concept of evil in their context of 'wrong' ie non-belief in their view.

So who's definition of evil is most appropriate, and how do we measure it! It helps to have your own definition first, but its not required if your willing to develop one.

As I've mentioned before that my broad definition of evil is something like "knowledge of someones level of suffering and a commitment to increasing it".... which is so broad it encompasses little bits of evil but also abject evil. Its quite specific though too, its about increasing someones suffering deliberately to ones own ends against their will. BTW I don't have any supernatural association to the concept of evil, like in terms of a Satan etc.

This definition is based on biological terms of the experience of living and human concepts of freedom for self agency, and intended to be viewed in the context of social interaction. Things like the universal declaration of human rights would be compatible with my definition of evil, as it opens with;

"inherent dignity and of the equal and inalienable rights of all members of the human family is the foundation of freedom, justice and peace in the world"

Well systematic sex slavery, rape, murder and torture are sorta at odds with that.

In which case from what I've seen the IS uses evil as a weapon to exert control and further its dominion. I've read enough stuff about them taking over towns where they take the women and girls as slaves, and kill all the men and boys.. dumping them in mass graves. Not to mention they directly tell their supporters to go out and murder innocent non-believers in public to create fear and propoganda material. It is quite literally an insane death cult from what I've read and seen through the media.

So if you really are that interested have a look at what the IS says they believe, and contrast it with the UDHR for example. The UDHR might be one good indicator of how the world might be required to understand how something like the IS would integrate peacefully into the world community;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Universal_Declaration_of_Human_Rights

But I don't think the IS wants to integrate into the world community anyway.

CryojenX wrote:

Skryym wrote: If, however, ISIS is not evil, wouldn't there be a way to bring them back to peace? Wouldn't we have a better way of answering hate than more warfare? If love can not win them over, then maybe it is real evil we are dealing with.

You hit upon something that has been preoccupying my thoughts this evening. One of the things I have firmly believed for so long is that no one is beyond redemption, it's why I'm against cruel and unusual punishment and one of the reasons I'm against the death penalty. But how in the universe can someone who not only kills innocents, but specifically targets innocents to slaughter in large numbers simply because they have not explicitly declared their allegiance to the same cause, possibly be redeemed in any sane sense of the word?

To this group these "innocents" are not innocents at all but the cause of their own suffering. The United States and other arrogent Democratic nations created comunism and the vilocence with it but mistreating the indiviuals within the Societ Union and China. These countries have also mistreated the indivusals within ISIS and they are retaliating in the most logical way to get a message accross. The unfortuante aspect is that the only way national leaders and most of their citizens will hear the anger and problems is through violence. So this group targets the face of what they believe to be evil based off their religious and culture belifes. It is important to see their view of all this because if we decide they are evil we must understand we help created them that way based off how we live in the wrold. We may not directly affect them but we support national polices that continue to ignore and harass them when diplompacy was an ignored option. We need to take accountablity on our action and in actions before we decide someone or something is evil.

Alsa-him wrote:

CryojenX wrote:

Skryym wrote: If, however, ISIS is not evil, wouldn't there be a way to bring them back to peace? Wouldn't we have a better way of answering hate than more warfare? If love can not win them over, then maybe it is real evil we are dealing with.

You hit upon something that has been preoccupying my thoughts this evening. One of the things I have firmly believed for so long is that no one is beyond redemption, it's why I'm against cruel and unusual punishment and one of the reasons I'm against the death penalty. But how in the universe can someone who not only kills innocents, but specifically targets innocents to slaughter in large numbers simply because they have not explicitly declared their allegiance to the same cause, possibly be redeemed in any sane sense of the word?

To this group these "innocents" are not innocents at all but the cause of their own suffering. The United States and other arrogent Democratic nations created comunism and the vilocence with it but mistreating the indiviuals within the Societ Union and China. These countries have also mistreated the indivusals within ISIS and they are retaliating in the most logical way to get a message accross. The unfortuante aspect is that the only way national leaders and most of their citizens will hear the anger and problems is through violence. So this group targets the face of what they believe to be evil based off their religious and culture belifes. It is important to see their view of all this because if we decide they are evil we must understand we help created them that way based off how we live in the wrold. We may not directly affect them but we support national polices that continue to ignore and harass them when diplompacy was an ignored option. We need to take accountablity on our action and in actions before we decide someone or something is evil.

Is that your interpretation or theirs? As IMO it's not that simple. It is certainly what they want us to believe - because it serves to pretend to justify their actions so they think they can continue with them.... but many people would disagree with it as distorted, me included. It's a complex issue though, complex enough for everyone to have a view, so IMO the important point is to stop looking backwards to caste blame as a justification for a continuing cycle of hatred, but to look forward where all parties stand to move forward - unfortunately the IS seems to want to exert its beliefs by force over all others, and that hardly is fair on everyone else to be what they want to be and grow into what they might be able to become. If your here to promote violent Jihad then you might be at the wrong forum.

If this thread is to be about the IS, known as ISIL amongst other terms, its relevant to keep in mind its stated purpose and actual intent, and not confuse them with the broader topic of islamic terrorism which itself has many different purposes and intentions;

Read this page for starters;
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_State_of_Iraq_and_the_Levant#Ideology_and_beliefs

Noting;

ISIL has detailed its goals in its Dabiq magazine, saying it will continue to seize land and take over the entire Earth : “blessed flag…covers all eastern and western extents of the Earth, filling the world with the truth and justice of Islam and putting an end to the falsehood and tyranny of jahiliyyah [state of ignorance], even if American and its coalition despise such.”

If they themselves have stated their mission is to create an Islamic world under harsh Sharia law, then its offtopic to bring in other regional causes and conflations such as western involvement in the Mid East... IMO.

id like to definitely allow a venue for everyone to express their view openly

yes, OP is about IS and that must be seen on its own merits

but i also acknowledge that its extremely important to address the broader issue of world relations

Evil? I don't know. Poisoned? Yes. I'd think that all the atrocities that have occurred in human history are just extreme example of the hatred, greed and ignorance that are within all of us. It's like a cup. What's a few drops of water in a cup? What's a few more? But if I throw in a few drops of water each day into the same cup, eventually it fills up and spills over. I'd reckon it's the same way with ordinary anger, attachment and ignorance. So what if someone gets mad when they're cut off in traffic, it's just a few drops in the cup after all. So what if someone makes racist jokes around their friends one night, it's just a few drops right? Eventually, the cup fills over, and we have extremism.

I try to stay positive though. That even though we're filled with attachment, aversion and ignorance, we can just as easily transform them into generosity, compassion and wisdom. Those traits can also fill up the cup, but in that case what spills over is a benefit to all.

Alsa-him wrote:

Competent wrote: I agree in that they are evil because:
1. They purposely scare people
2. Hurt innocent civilians
3. Back up their beliefs with Islam

I would just like to remind you that we do not hate other religions because they are not our own. We must be tollereant in all things and not fear the things we do not understand.

I never said anything against their religion. Islam is a beautiful religion. I was saying that they use Islam as a way to cover that they do awful things, making Muslims out to be something they aren't: extremists.

CryojenX wrote: But how in the universe can someone who not only kills innocents, but specifically targets innocents to slaughter in large numbers simply because they have not explicitly declared their allegiance to the same cause, possibly be redeemed in any sane sense of the word?

Human beings, essentially, are somewhere between animalistic primitives and rational thinkers. If you appeal long enough to the animalistic side, rational thinking is gone or is manipulated to a degree where people start rationalizing themselves into thinking that what they're doing is, indeed, rational. We've all read a lot about the hero's quest - to IS, these terrorists are heroes. And if you think about it: what these people did (leaving home, going after what they believe is 'evil', fighting, even giving their lives for the cause) can very much be considered a hero's quest, albeit a very much misguided one from our point of view. That's why Campbell points out that good and evil are relative - and the experience of awe can also be found in what we might consider absolutely horrific things. So are they 'evil'? Not from their point of view. If the definition of 'evil' is that they hold views that threaten our own lifestyle and core beliefs? Yes, then they can be considered 'evil'. I don't think you can be 'evil', you can only be CONSIDERED evil by others.

But coming back to the question of redemption: the issue is, you never know if a person's rational thinking can be restored to a point where it dominates the animalistic side once more. So by executing someone, you deny that person that chance, even if the outcome would have been negative anyway.

So, this was the more rational half of me speaking.

Here are my personal, emotional and, perhaps, animalistic thought of this:

I believe this has to end. And and I believe there is, at this point, only one thing that will end it: move in, occupy the area, and stop the terrorists from seeping out into other areas of the world. Watts mentions that you can't push values on other people because what's right for us might not be right for others. However, defending one's own rights, freedom and lifestyle is sometimes necessary to keep society intact. I'm a pacifist at heart - and it breaks mine to see how we've failed our youth to a degree that makes them believe they need to go the IS area, get arms and training only to come back and kill us. It's beyond comprehension to me how this can be happening. But it's reality and if we want our values to prevail, we have to fight back at this point.

"Is ISIS evil?" My what a question. What is evil? At what level and in what direction does an action start to become "evil"? Oddly enough a quote from Anakin actually seems fitting to me here: "From my point of view, the Jedi are evil!" Good and evil are completely and entirely relative. When I was raised I was engendered with the morality system of my parents. Things like stealing and lying are bad and things that hurt someone else are abominations.

But not everyone is raised in this way. Perhaps ISIS truly believe that their interpretation of Islam is correct and that they truly have a God-given manifest destiny to conquer the rest of the world. Perhaps we truly are seen as evil by them. Perhaps they see us as trodding over their paradise and destroying their world. In their eyes perhaps they really are the good guys. How are we to judge that our good is the true good and not just their evil?

Does seeing what they do make me sad? It grieves me deeply to know such pain and suffering is caused. Do I think the other nations should raise arms and blow them to pieces? Not in the slightest. Bloodshed begets bloodshed. Cut off the head of the hydra and two more grow back in its place. Only when we stop fighting our differences and protecting our own self-interests and start working for the greater good of all mankind together can such things cease to be.