Still a church?

Phortis Nespin wrote: Who do they serve? What is their doctrine? What greater good are they trying to accomplish? What benefit are they to the community? Do they have a mission statement that expresses their goals and objectives? WWSD?(What Would the Sword Do?) I don't get it!!!!

I've worked on and off extensively with the Society for Creative Anachronism, Belegarth medieval Combat Society, Trackers Earth, and a few others teaching martial arts and sword play with foam swords of varying construction.

I can tell you that there is a very therapeutic element to sword work. Developing strength, coordination, awareness. I've seen it not only help kids and young adult with social anxiety, physical weakness, motivation, etc, but also serve to bring groups together. As was said in another thread, sometimes you can only truly know and connect with someone by trading blows. So instead of fight club, we give them swords.

Never underestimate the potential value someone's passion can create, you'll only be humbled when someone goes out and does it

Not sure what their real beliefs are aside from sowrd fighting. Seems more like a practice than a religion but who knows. But is it is pretty absurd to say a religion is not a religion because they don't worship a deity. Have they never heard of a non-theistic religion? Buddhism, Jeddism, Jainism, ect.

Never underestimate the potential value someone's passion can create, you'll only be humbled when someone goes out and does it

Really?? My chiropractor is therapeutic, IT"S NOT A RELIGION!

Many people have a passion for for marathons and running in general. They live and breath it. They cannot get through the day without a 5K under their belt. I would love to be able to run that far and as fast as a Kenyan. It humbles me to know there are people in this world that can do things I cannot..IT"S NOT A RELIGION!

Sword play is a deep and meaningful art. It takes time, patients, and commitment to excel at it. Many people hold the rapier as it was a religious object...BUT IT"S NOT!! IT"S NOT A RELIGION!!

I love the Star Wars movies, EU, and the whole thing...IT"S NOT A RELIGION!!!

Being a Jedi in the context that this Temple has provided is the basis for what constitutes a religion, not the fictitious light saber wielding icons of the movie.

Just sayin'

Haha. Heard and understood. But if I might be so bold as to interpret your capitalizations as emphasis, and notice the words you capitalize ("It is not a religion"), then I might reply that you are "just sayin" quite "loudly".

To be clear, you took my statement of potential value from passion out of contect and went back to your original point, which was already clear before. I was suggesting that religion or no, the potential for their sword fighting to produce positive impact was not limited by limited perspectives.

Lets take a stab at how the english language defines religion:
noun

the belief in and worship of a superhuman controlling power, especially a personal God or gods.
synonyms: faith, belief, worship, creed;

a particular system of faith and worship.
plural noun: religions

a pursuit or interest to which someone ascribes supreme importance.

I agree completely that the chiropractor and the olympic runner and the sword fighter are not religions in the first definition, but I would pose the possibility that they could, in the right context of passion and vehemence, qualify under either of the second two, but especially the third.

So then I suppose what I should really be asking is: Why do you care what definition of religion is used? .. or maybe rather, Why do you insist on using only one accepted definition of religion?

Seems awful limiting to tell someone what "is" or "isn't" something....

I've heard "fishing is my religion. It brings me closer to nature. I have time to think, or not." And so forth...

I'm a believer that contemplation alone doesn't make the religion...

Not knowing their full doctrine/reasons, I reserve the right to say, "who am I to judge?"....

Everyone here has made some good points, but we must remember we are talking about the US and the separation of church and state. As a Trustee of my Village, I must look at the whole of the issue. So when I say it is not a religion, I am basing that on the fact that this organization is asking the Government to afford them tax benefits and special considerations because they say they are a religion. If we as Trustees or other government agencies do not create a limiting structure as to what is a religion, we might as well stop collecting taxes as everyone will find a "religion" to hide behind.

Just because an individual or group of individuals find peace, tranquility and solace in a particular subject, does not mean it is a religion. You can say that fishing is my religion, and I have used a similar wording about other things myself, but it is not. I also limit what a religion is because I feel that if everything and anything can be construed as a religion, it cheapens the meaning of what makes a religion a religion. Is it not hard enough for this Temple and the Jedi Community to shed the Star Wars stigma?

There are several more points I could make, but I will forego them and just say I disagree that this sword organization is a religion in the context I previously stated.

Phortis Nespin wrote: Everyone here has made some good points, but we must remember we are talking about the US and the separation of church and state. As a Trustee of my Village, I must look at the whole of the issue. So when I say it is not a religion, I am basing that on the fact that this organization is asking the Government to afford them tax benefits and special considerations because they say they are a religion. If we as Trustees or other government agencies do not create a limiting structure as to what is a religion, we might as well stop collecting taxes as everyone will find a "religion" to hide behind.

Warning: Spoiler!

Just because an individual or group of individuals find peace, tranquility and solace in a particular subject, does not mean it is a religion. You can say that fishing is my religion, and I have used a similar wording about other things myself, but it is not. I also limit what a religion is because I feel that if everything and anything can be construed as a religion, it cheapens the meaning of what makes a religion a religion. Is it not hard enough for this Temple and the Jedi Community to shed the Star Wars stigma?

There are several more points I could make, but I will forego them and just say I disagree that this sword organization is a religion in the context I previously stated.

Ah...

See, as elected officials, we sometimes have to enforce things we disagree with...

Since you are now talking about the legal definition, I agree completely... YOu personally just happen to agree with this definition, lol.. My bad..

But, then too, we know that laws have been wrong, but our jobs as elected officials is to enforce the laws as they are, and work to change them if the people wish it so...

I was talking personally, not from our official capacity, lol...

From my Official capacity, 'Yes, Trustee Nespin, I concur'...

:lol:...

Phortis Nespin wrote: organization is asking the Government to afford them tax benefits and special considerations because they say they are a religion.

Boom! Hah, ok, NOW we are definitely on the same page. As far as definitions of religion goes, sure, let them have it, but I agree that in terms of tax exemption and legal status: no, I'd rather not open that door. If so, than why does anyone make LLCs? why not just make Churches, get a good incidental insurance for your church, and go from there?

To be honest, and I am sure this will rub some feathers, but I don't think that churches receiving tax exemption is really proper anymore. At this point, the range of human passion, investment, organization, religion, Non religion, etc... there's just too much to be pulled into the "Why does that 'church' get tax exemption but my sword fighting coven doesn't?".

I wonder at what cost we've opened these doors of tax exemption..

cedricwinterwolf wrote: To be honest, and I am sure this will rub some feathers, but I don't think that churches receiving tax exemption is really proper anymore. At this point, the range of human passion, investment, organization, religion, Non religion, etc... there's just too much to be pulled into the "Why does that 'church' get tax exemption but my sword fighting coven doesn't?".

I wonder at what cost we've opened these doors of tax exemption..

I think they should 'means test' them for exemptions. If the donation's coming in are sufficiently huge, then treat them like any other corporation... and the government can set the amount where it deems appropriate to support small churches without letting large ones become like tax havens for individuals to grow wealth.

I always thought a religion was just a spiritual philosophy. A way of living involving spiritual practice, whether it involves a deity or not, as obviously there are non-theistic religions out there. What is the Church of the Sword's philosophy of life? Do they just play with swords or actually partake in spiritual practice? Otherwise it seems more like a practice than a religion. It would be like saying Alchemy is a religion.