Still a church?

Part of the message is hidden for the guests. Please log in or register to see it.

Fascinating. I'll be interested to follow this to see how it continues.....

Non-Profit, sure. Church?....no....yes.....good question? lol Interestingly I thought about posting this as it's own story, but I think it would be interesting to read in this thread because it is somewhat relevant to the topic of how to define religion. (even if it does do a bit of bashing as to how religion has evolved- WARNING: It's a Christian message overall)

http://www.peterkreeft.com/topics-more/religions_newpaganism.htm

I do understand what the town is trying to do. There has to be a line somewhere so that not just everyone can become tax exempt. I don't really know enough about the Church of the Sword to know what to call them, but if they've really gone on five years like that I'd say they're not just out to scam the government.

I think it should be fully valid as a religion. I hope they can get the recognition they deserve.

Here's the question that keeps picking at my mind :

Why are they after recognition ? Is it to justify their beliefs - which is a lot more difficult than just getting some "official" recognition - or, is it to not have to pay the taxes on their property ? If it is simply to have the tax break, although that is a legitimate concern, it isn't really very religious way of validating a religion.

On the other hand, the town's stance on their religion not being a real one because they don't worship a deity, that is a pretty flimsy and ... well, just sophomoric excuse which shows little understanding of what religion is. If they do not understand what religion is, how can they say the the Church of the Sword isn't practising one ? They just probably want them to pay their taxes, and that hearkens back to the thing I was saying about the CotS's claim above.

I'll be a little curious as to how this turns out too ... but only a little.

Alexandre Orion wrote: Here's the question that keeps picking at my mind :

Why are they after recognition ? Is it to justify their beliefs -

Warning: Spoiler!

which is a lot more difficult than just getting some "official" recognition - or, is it to not have to pay the taxes on their property ? If it is simply to have the tax break, although that is a legitimate concern, it isn't really very religious way of validating a religion.

On the other hand, the town's stance on their religion not being a real one because they don't worship a deity, that is a pretty flimsy and ... well, just sophomoric excuse which shows little understanding of what religion is. If they do not understand what religion is, how can they say the the Church of the Sword isn't practising one ? They just probably want them to pay their taxes, and that hearkens back to the thing I was saying about the CotS's claim above.

I'll be a little curious as to how this turns out too ... but only a little.

That is a question we get ask, and ask ourselves too, isnt it...

Alexandre Orion wrote: Here's the question that keeps picking at my mind :

Why are they after recognition ? Is it to justify their beliefs - which is a lot more difficult than just getting some "official" recognition - or, is it to not have to pay the taxes on their property ? If it is simply to have the tax break, although that is a legitimate concern, it isn't really very religious way of validating a religion.

Probably all of the above!! :lol:

I say no, its not a church, at least from what I have read on it.

To the point of why isn't it a church.... I guess its because religious adherence often produces very little material benefit for the time spent. By recognizing the validity of religions to individual and community health (and therefore the nation, and perhaps world!) the governments understand they cannot fairly compete in the market economy for which the taxation and insurance requirements are geared into - as a running cost of doing business. Hard to pay when your business is welfare of spirit perhaps!!!!



Obviously not everyone can get special treatment... so why do only religions get special treatment - I'd say it would have to fall back onto the nature of the activity.

Sporting and other types of community groups are definitely a valuable type of spiritual welfare - but one of excitement and challenge where the mechanism of physicality is quite accessible to many, versus religion which might be seen as deep introspection and emotional engagement - which strike me as more difficult and less attractive. The former might then be seen as easier to create and continue to exist, while the later might fairly be seen as harder to develop and maintain. So I consider it a specialty community segment I guess. So it would seem to me a religion is important, but more difficult to set up and operate. So if the government views them as important there is a distinction which might confer it this special treatment.

But then to the definition of religion itself, if your following me here then it would seem to fall back onto that deep introspection and emotional engagement of self and the meaning of life, death, behaviour, feelings, coping and decision making in a trusted group with access to subject matter specialists. Sounds like mental health a bit to me!!! Perhaps historical religion's at their heart were embryonic psychological support groups?

One of the other main different circumstances, serving that very function, is the depth of belief many religions tend to have. It goes beyond believing your footy team is best, to sometimes reaching a much broader scope of individual behaviour, something we all are aware of with the various range of religious devotions and worldviews. The functional benefits of using beliefs is they can support decision making in circumstances of ambiguity and can allow group dynamics to function on a platform of cohesion rather then segregation.

And given the direction I've gone is mental health, that is a pretty good platform. So those two attributes, of mental health and structured worldviews and associated beliefs are probably what differentiate a religion from a group.



But such an assertion cannot be adopted as a legal criterion. The mantle of immunity would soon be in tatters if it were wrapped around beliefs, practices and observances of every kind whenever a group of adherents chose to call them a religion (cf. United States v. Kuch 288 F. Supp. 439 (1968)). A more objective criterion is required."

Im my readings the discussion in the Australian courts tended to this direction;



So if I was to take that approach and end up at "Religious belief is more than a cosmology; it is a belief in a supernatural Being, Thing or Principle." then it really starts to provide that differentiation from mental health services to religion. It is the provision of an adjunct to mental health which incorporates non-scientific elements perhaps? Because the health field cannot operate outside of science for legal reasons I'd imagine!?

In my Jediism I just use science to minimize that supernatural as much as possible, ideally even that is informed by science as much as possible - but I think it has a place, to connect the disparate dots, so to speak
:blink:

Who do they serve? What is their doctrine? What greater good are they trying to accomplish? What benefit are they to the community? Do they have a mission statement that expresses their goals and objectives? WWSD?(What Would the Sword Do?) I don't get it!!!!

I can show you thousands of people that work out like it's a religion, but it is not. There are fencing clubs and track clubs and bowling clubs and soccer clubs and golf clubs.........NOT RELIGIONS!

I worship the ground my wife walks on...not getting any tax relief for that either!

This sounds like a sword club that needs a better phallic sign from God! :evil:

Phortis Nespin wrote: Who do they serve? What is their doctrine? What greater good are they trying to accomplish? What benefit are they to the community?

Warning: Spoiler!

Do they have a mission statement that expresses their goals and objectives? WWSD?(What Would the Sword Do?) I don't get it!!!!

I can show you thousands of people that work out like it's a religion, but it is not. There are fencing clubs and track clubs and bowling clubs and soccer clubs and golf clubs.........NOT RELIGIONS!

I worship the ground my wife walks on...not getting any tax relief for that either!

This sounds like a sword club that needs a better phallic sign from God! :evil:

I feel, First, religion is to help ourselves, then, through helping ourselves, we can better help others...

Maybe these guys will do charity sword fights, who knows... lol..